Hold the Line! Hawk Tactics and Units

[gornhorror]

Yes it is.    Just have a knack for getting people to talk.  Whether I'm right or wrong.  Doesn't matter.

[Niko White]

Heavy Infantry and Pikes are both not great, I agree, though I think the Hawk medium infantry, and especially the Hawk Spearmen, are really quite nice.  They're not super specialized units, which is always going to hurt in some contexts, but they're a remarkably nice unit to just slap down somewhere and have confidence that they'll beat light units and hold out against heavy ones, which is quite a luxury in some games for the low-200 point counts.

Pikes...well, they should really have been 2/1, I think, or 2/2; I get that not having shields stopped that, but a thicket of pikes does well enough that I think I'd have allowed it.  At that point they're more like super-spearmen, whereas now they feel like they're playing catch-up to the other infantry; 1/2 is really a staggeringly bad defense line.

Heavy Infantry aren't a bad unit in theory, I just find 282 is more than I ever really want to pay for a unit that's hitting at (5) 5/5, especially in the Hawk army where Bravery can make your medium guys stay in it for a long time.  That said, they can have a place in Kingdoms or terrain/scenario games; one of these guys will hold a pass or choke point basically forever, which can be a nice thing in some cases.

[Hannibal]

That said, they can have a place in Kingdoms or terrain/scenario games; one of these guys will hold a pass or choke point basically forever, which can be a nice thing in some cases.

Yeah, after our last campaign I have decided I want to do Hawkshold for the next one.  Once you get the Keep, the list becomes really fun.  Nothing but cavalry.  Nothing but the 2.5" Movers.  Oh yes...

[elgin_j]

(HI and Pikes are a waste of time, as we all know)

Some good points in your post, but... WHAT?!?!?

OK, I see the Pikes as being super specialized and not commonly useful.  But the Heavy Infantry is just a flat-out amazing unit.  I've had Brook plop those suckers in the middle of his line and unless you're ramming something spectacular at them, they stick around forever.

I used to think that HI were the business.  Now I think they are bitches.  For 281pts(?) I can field Spearmen and Peasants for 9pts more, or Light Cavalry for 26pts less.  It also goes one hell of a way to pay for Knights or Longbows.  That said, however, why waste your time when the gorgeous Greatswords are just there, for the taking, ready to bring (5) 6 6 of doom and merciless pain to your enemies.  I`ll concede they have more utility than Pikemen but bar a very specialised Kingdoms-inspired army they have no place in any Hawk army of mine.

[gornhorror]

Just a quick question.  What does everybody think of the Scouts unit in the Hawks army?  When I am building my Hawk armies they always seem like a good deal, but when I play them I am disappointed.  Do people put them in their armies or are they more inclined to choose the Light infantry? 

[Hannibal]

The Scouts are for many armies a match-up problem.  They're cheap because their points are spent on speed and little else.  So you can take a full line and then 1-2 Scouts to roll out on the flanks.  Anything your opponent sends after them is almost certainly going to be more expensive, so the Scouts tie down more than their value. 

The key is to actually not engage, but threaten a flank.  So if the enemy unit ignores the Scouts are tries to turn your line, the Scouts can charge back in hitting the enemy in the flank or rear.  And with their speed, the Scouts will most likely be in charge range.  This forces the enemy to chase down the Scouts, but not be able to engage them.

With the advent of skirmishers and historical cav, the spell has been broken.  Its not that skirmishers & the (cheaper) historical cav nullify Scouts.  It's that with those two units showing up more often, people are forced to deal with the cheap units on the flanks.  A more common problem leads to a more well known solution.  And what works against Historical Cav or Skirmishers will also work against Scouts.

I would still include Scouts, depending on the scenario, because they're Hawkshold's skirmishers.  You use them in the same function.  Often you can only afford 1 unit, so that is a bit of a downside.  So I'd put them on a flank next to a row of Peasants (I usually put my peasants in twos, one backing the other).  A pinch from a peasant mob & Scouts will still grind down just about anybody.

[Kevin]

Perfect answer by Hannibal.

[RushAss]

Yeah, Scouts are really best used as a distraction as speed is the only decent asset they have.  Perhaps they should change the name to "scoots"? 

[gornhorror]

I guess for the price the scouts are pretty good.   They are actually starting to pop up in my armies.  Watching Kevin's army at Council last year made me a believer.  I just have to improve on the nuances of the game to make them more effective. (i.e. get more pinches)

[Chad_YMG]

I just want to echo what Hannibal said here.

Quite often people make the mistake of engaging with their light cavalry when they should instead invest command actions to continue making positional threats with them.  Most light cavalry units will simply die in anything like a fair fight with, well, anything.  What makes them good is that they have enough speed to play tag with the flanks.  The CAs you spend will often force your opponent to spend at least as many while tying up a larger number of points.

Hannibal is also correct that the release of BGHW, with skirmishers and more light cavalry, has forced players to build their armies with this type of threat in mind so it's less likely that you'll catch someone with a setup that really can't handle them (most commonly a short line).

[Hannibal]

It's funny you should post this, because last week I got in a game testing out our wacky kingdoms for Kublacon.  I picked the militaristic tree (they get the Keep very early) and I immediately grabbed Hawkshold.  Once their Standard = Core, I'm ready for any mission.

We got border defense with me attacking and I decided to go for the all-cav option:  3 Light Cav, 3 Scouts, 2 Knights.  I was playing against Dark Elves and had an extra CA for DC purposes (from my tree), so I pretty much nullified the effects of his Lashmistresses.

Anyway, Bravery on all my cav units really kept me in the game.  I only lost because a) my Light Cav failed their first rout check despite having Bravery and the +2 Cge card (like a 2% chance) and b) I went for the lulz and slammed in my scouts & knights instead of taking them off the table.

The other thing was exactly what you mentioned about scouts:  I used them to tie down blade dancers for most of the game.  Oh they died horribly when he caught them, but boy did they earn their points.

[lazyj]

Holy crap, I take a short break from the forums and everyone pours in like four new pages of discussion on my favorite faction!

This will learn me never to ignore the YMG forums for four months... 

I strongly agree with whoever said leave them be. The practical reality of doing anything to "fix" them makes it completely not worth it, and I don't think they're broken beyond play-ability anyway. I've had great success with them and honestly every time I play another faction I start comparing it to the Hawks. I still feel like I have a shot a winning on any terrain, in any scenario against any other faction with a 2000 point Hawk army. AND I feel like I have lots of creative options for how to do so. I don't have that confidence about any of the other factions.

What's funny is that I think the forum consensus on the faction and the units is generally about the same as the original write-up I put together that Niko stickied here. Everyone go re-read it on page 1! 

One final thought about Scouts: the addition of skirmishers has meant that there's a new awareness of the "light mobile annoying guy on the flank" role that Scout excelled at, and you're less likely to surprise anyone with them in that role. But they are still the kings of anti-real-skirmishers (well - tied with Numidians) because they're relatively cheap and their 7" move keeps skirmishers from auto-rallying. I feel they join the Heavy Infantry and Pikes as special situation types. Look at the map, consider the army, and if you have space for them to achieve a specific role pick them up. But don't expect general purpose.

[Zelc]

I have to say I just don't get this faction.  Everything moves at different speeds, and there's no "generic" breakthrough unit.  Their strongest units are either really slow, cavalry and fragile, or Longbowmen.  I can't seem to build a good army with them.

Also, maybe I should use Bravery more?  The Hawk's command cards don't seem so great.  Although I keep feeling like every Bravery I circle is giving a +1 damage advantage to my opponent :-/.

[gornhorror]

well, Zelc. It was a pleasure playing Battleground with you the other night at Marcus's house.  I hope you can come again real soon.  Well, I didn't play them the night you came, but I play the Hawks quite a bit and do quite well with them.  You usually have more units than your opponent because of the low cost of the units and the fact that many of the core units have 5 green boxes makes them quite effective.  Add in Bravery and you have a very tough army.  So yes, use bravery more often.  It will win you games.  Also, the Hawks cavalry is quite fearsome.  Light cavalry units are relatively cheap at 245 and hit pretty hard.  The Knights seem expensive(I think they are a little bit), but they hit like a freight train.  If they get on the opponents flanks, it's all over.  Even the Scouts are quite effective for pinches and fly like the wind at 7".  If you want to give them a try the next time we play, I can lend you my deck.  That's no problem. 

On a side note, I really hope that someday they run out of Hawks decks and have to reprint them on glossier cards, mine are beat up.

[Zelc]

Oh, I have the faction deck, I just don't know what to do with them .  I'll have to try using Bravery more often.