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Author Topic: Lizards Grind out a win vs Hawkshold and Orcs at 4000 points per side  (Read 547 times)
RushAss
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« on: July 26, 2012, 12:14:16 pm »

Another night, another big battle.  There where only 3 of us, so the die roll determined that I’d be controlling the 4000 point army while Brook and Chris would be teaming up against me with 2000 points each.  For the uninitiated, we used an expanded map with a 12-unit wide deployment zone.  No terrain since we didn’t get started until it was almost 10!  I only allowed myself 7 command actions per turn as I normally do when controlling 4000 points.  I still don’t feel at a shortage of command actions when I do this and as you’ll see at the end, I still had a huge command card advantage.  I will warn you in advance that there was little in the way of clever strategizing or spectacular tactical play going on this night, this would be a truly ugly grindfest.

We where going to try out Brook’s Smash hit house rule this time around, so I selected Lizardmen.  As it turned out, my opponent’s faction selection (Orcs for Brook, Hawks for Chris) made it that I would never bother with the Smash hit thing this game due to the nature of those faction’s defensive stats.  Oh well, we’ll give it another go next time.

Set Up



Well, that pic came out rather crappy.  Let’s try one from the other side, shall we?



Much better!  Sadly, the rest of the photos where taken from the first angle so you’ll have to switch your perspective back to that of the first photo.  In the upper right hand corner of this pic you will note the tan, flower imprinted couch cover on one of our couches.  A mere couple of weeks ago BubblePig rested his fine, fluffy head there for an over night stay for Dexcon.  Ah the memories…

Orcs controlled by Brook, Hawkshold controlled by Chris
From top to bottom:
Crazed Goblins backed by 2 Goblin Wolf Riders
Orc Marauders
Orc Swordsmen backed by Crazed Goblins
Orc Swordsmen
Orc Swordsmen with Goblin Bowmen behind them
Orc Swordsmen
3 Hawkshold Greatswordsmen with 2 Peasant Mobs behind this meat grinder
Hawk Swordsmen with Scouts behind them facing South
Hawk Militia with Scouts behind them facing South
Hawk Knights (We’re OK as long as we don’t fight big guys!)


Lizardmen controlled by Yours Truly
Starting from the top:
Ancients behind Swarmlings
Trog Warriors
Trog Warriors
Trog Spearmen with Trog Bowmen behind them and the Trogs to their right
Trog Warriors
Trog Warirors
Tyrant Spearmen
Triceratops Herd
Trog Warriors
Hatchlings behind Hatchlings 2.5 inches behind main line (Kiddie stack)
Triceratops Herd
Ancients (hungry for Knights) with Raptor Pack facing South

I didn’t realize it at the time, but my deployment was just brutal for Chris’ Hawks.  I didn’t intend to punish him, the deployment just seemed to unfold that way.  Once I realized that Brook was laying down a solid wall of Orcs, I decided to counter with a wall of Trogs who would be expected to hold down that region while I deployed my smasher units on the other front.  Sadly for Hawkshold, it would be their front.  Sorry Chris!

Standing Orders
Orcs and Hawks where uniformly set to close.  The Goblin Bowmen where targeting one of my Trog units that was closest to it, but I can’t remember which one.

The Lizards where also set to a universal close for the most part.  The Ancients on my left flank where set to target the Knights because I’ve always felt that a strength of big units is their ability to eat heavy cavalry.  My Swarmlings on the far right where set to close at 3.5 so they wouldn’t be pinched early by Wolf Rider sneakiness.  My Trog Bowmen where targeting the Orc Swordsmen that would be facing my Trog Spearmen. 

Early Turns



Nothing astonishing occurred the first couple of turns.  I plopped Fury on a few units and drew cards.  You can see the Crazed Goblins doing what they do best – run stupidly to their doom.  Damage from archery at this point was minimal.



That’s more like it!  We’ll start from the bottom and work our way up.  Brook used direct control to keep his Wolf Riders from charging into my Ancients early on while I direct controlled said Ancients to keep them from pinching the Crazed Goblins.  I was perfectly happy to maintain this standoff as it was costing Brook twice as many command actions to achieve this as is was costing me.  Besides, the Swarmlings with Fury where going to win this fight anyways.  The Trogs and Orcs are engaged in a grind that was slow going at first.  This would become a continuing trend.  The Great Swordsmen are not yet engaged, but the Swordsmen, Militia, and Knights all get into the act.  All pre combat fear checks where passed IIRC.  The Knights actually started off better than the Ancients did.  Again, not a whole lot of damage from ranged fire.

Mid Turns



Apparently a lot has happened here and thank goodness I remembered most of it!  Starting from the bottom again.  The Swarmlings have defeated the Crazed Goblins.  Brook eventually bit the bullet and had both Wolf Riders twos-company the Ancients (this action was sadly cut off at the bottom of the pic).  I had direct controlled the Ancients to both protect the Swarmlings and prevent an off-map final rush of the Wolves.  The Ancients took a beating, but hung in there and eventually routed (and killed) one of the Wolf Riders while the Swarmlings had their close objective changed so that they could pinch the other Wolf Rider unit.  The Orc/Trog grind crawls on with the Orc swords beginning to get some traction while the Trogs just can’t seem to inflict anything.  In a microcosm of this action, the combination of Trog Archers and Spearmen have inflicted all of 2 damage on their Orc adversaries by this point. Ay Caramba! 

Where things had bogged down for me on the Orc front, they where going much better on the Hawk front.  For one thing, my dice where simply better against the Hawks for some reason.  One of the Greadswordsmen units polished off a Trog unit, Swordsmen dispatched Hatchlings and then routed the second Hatchlings, but that was all the good news the Hawks would get for this phase of the game.  The Triceratops Herd closest to the top routed the Militia on my opponent’s turn, then rammed into the Scouts behind them on my turn.  Flattening the Scouts and beginning a feeding frenzy for the Lizards.  The Ancients put the Knights into the red and the Knights routed, bringing them to a tragic end.  My Raptor Pack made short work of the other Scout unit on the far flank.   



This pic was taken a turn later.  Again, starting at the bottom.  The Ancients have survived the twin Wolf Rider charge with 2 red boxes and they thanked their little Swarmling buddies for helping out with the pinch.  The Trog line has begun to disintegrate on the Orc front as my Trogs cannot seem to do any damage at all.  Tyrants have won their fight against their Greatswordsmen opponents and wind up getting pinched by a Peasant Mob and Orcs.  The mighty Tyrants dispatch first the Peasant Mob, then take the Orcs with them into the afterlife.  While widely maligned, Tyrants are pure gold on your line in a fight like this.  In a strange occurrence, the Triceratops Herd engaged with the Greatswordsmen simply stopped doing damage.  The Greatswordsmen spent 4 turns with 1 yellow hit box remaining and the Trikes just couldn’t do that point!  They eventually routed and fell to the stubborn Greatswordsmen.  Now the bad thing about winning my left flank so decisively was that I now had all of these heavy hitter units way out there on the fringe and it was going to take a good deal of time to get them back into the fray.  Fortunately the Trike Herd was able to get into it first and it made short work of the Hawk Swordsmen.  By now they where soaked to their knees in Hawkhold blood!  I just let the Hatchlings run since they only had a couple of red boxes remaining anyways.

Endgame



With most of the units gone and the surviving ones moving to convene in the middle of the board, I could now take aerial shots of the combat.  Looking at the board, it would appear that the reptiles where in serious trouble.  But note that the Hawks have now been completely annihilated, I would now have a 7 to 4 command action advantage for the rest of the game.  Plus I had recycled my deck by this point, so drawing regeneration again was definitely a possibility.

On the right, my Ancients and Swarmlings where finished by the Marauders and a SwordOrc unit, but the Marauders took grievous punishment in the exchange.  The Goblin Bowmen where actually lashed into combat to pinch the Raptors along with Sword Orcs, but along came the Trike Herd to cause gruesome explosions of Orc meat.  To make matters worse for the Orcs, I was able to draw both regeneration cards over the next couple of turns and had healed my Ancients back up to 3 green boxes.  True comedy ensued when the Crazed Goblins ran into the Trog Bowmen and did absolutely no damage whatsoever.  Then again, I did have a ton of command cards and The Crazies couldn’t get any help.



And so it has come to this.  All of the remaining Orc units have fallen to the Triceratops Herd/Ancients combo and the Trogs are now free to shoot again after vanquishing the Crazed Goblins.  I will say that this is the ONLY time I have seen Trog Bowmen be worth their 176 points – LOL.  Brook surrendered at this point.

Final Thoughts 

1 – Even though my attack dice where lame on the Orc front, I was certainly helped out by the fact that my guys just - wouldn’t - run!  I failed 5 courage checks the entire game and was able to negate 2 of those with Cold Blooded.  Sure I had some help from Fury and Blood Frenzy, but only having to turn 3 units around with 4000 points is still a good start on the path to victory

2 – My command action advantage at the end of the game sealed the deal since I had an answer for just about any command card Brook could play.  The game very much may have ended differently if I didn’t have that advantage.

3 – The fall of Hawkshold was sped along by the fact that my dice on that side of things where good.  Not outstanding, but certainly better than Chris was rolling with only a few exceptions.  In addition to that, I had a lot more firepower facing the Hawks than I had facing the Orcs.

4 – My continuing philosophy that Large units own cavalry holds.  Even Knights are going to have a hard time maintaining a fight with a unit like Ancients because they are simply unable to force a rout check on the charge turn with all card play being equal.

5 – I was lucky nobody thought to bring along spears.

Heroes of the Game

Hawkshold – The Greatswords that weathered the storm and beat back a Triceratops Herd.  They later got stomped by the other Herd, but they certainly made a good accounting of themselves.

Orcs – No single Orc unit really stood out and the Marauders where lackluster, but most of the SwordOrcs where very resilient and eventually triumphed against a line that was nearly their same cost in points.  Alas, they where betrayed in the end by the fall of Hawkshold and the resulting disadvantage in command actions.

Lizardmen – Both Ancients made their mark and the Tyrant Spearmen where quite manly, but this award goes to the Triceratops Herd that started the game facing Hawk Militia.  Here’s the list of guys that where on this unit’s kill list: Militia, Scouts, Hawk Swordsmen, Greatswordsmen, and 2 SwordOrcs.  It’s true that many of these units had been softened up by previous combat, but that’s still pretty impressive!  The sad part is that they where unable to join in the post-battle feast where the Lizards dined on the flesh of their vanquished enemies because Trikes are not meat eaters.  Oh for shame!
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Kevin
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 01:11:18 pm »

Quote
The sad part is that they where unable to join in the post-battle feast where the Lizards dined on the flesh of their vanquished enemies because Trikes are not meat eaters.

As your not-so-friendly neighborhood hippo or rhino will attest, sometimes stoping something into oblivious is its own reward.  Grin

Nice report, and nice illustration as to why 7 CAs can still be pretty sweet if you can wipe out one side fast enough.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 01:44:20 pm by Kevin » Logged

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BubblePig
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 04:25:27 pm »

I am not surprised that the Trikes were the heroes here; Triple impact hits make them a compelling buy for the points unless you are facing something like Zombie Trolls.
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gornhorror
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 09:28:59 pm »

Well, it was a shame that Marcus didn't have need to try out the SMASH HIT, but the next time we get together I'll make sure somebody has reason to try it.  I had a blast playing the Orcs, they are a very fun faction if you like rolling dice...... Grin Which I do.  Shocked   
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GoIndy
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2012, 01:48:45 pm »

That looked like a pretty dang close game.  If only Chris had brought some cavalry!!
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gornhorror
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2012, 03:52:07 pm »

That looked like a pretty dang close game.  If only Chris had brought some cavalry!!

He did, they're called Knights.  They took on one of the Ancients units.  and.....oh.......F&%K Robert the Bruce!!!!!!!!!!!!!............F&%K em..... Grin
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RushAss
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2012, 04:25:11 pm »

Quote
The sad part is that they where unable to join in the post-battle feast where the Lizards dined on the flesh of their vanquished enemies because Trikes are not meat eaters.
As your not-so-friendly neighborhood hippo or rhino will attest, sometimes stoping something into oblivious is its own reward.  Grin
Yeah, but you still gotta feel bad for the Trikies.  I mean, after a rampage like that they have got to be HUNGRY.  Do you think they'll find anything tasty to munch on that battlefield after all the damage both armies had done to the vegitation?  And I'm sure that most of the vegetation had been flattened by the paths both armies took to get there as well.  I'm thinking that the only place they could go to get a bite would be to either flank of the battlefield and they are screwed if they cannot find anything there.

If the Lizards where smart and truly cared for their Trikies, they'd have a few Ancients towing giant wagonloads of shrubs and stuff.
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gull2112
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 02:58:41 pm »

Well, it was a shame that Marcus didn't have need to try out the SMASH HIT, but the next time we get together I'll make sure somebody has reason to try it.  I had a blast playing the Orcs, they are a very fun faction if you like rolling dice...... Grin Which I do.  Shocked   

Got to agree with you there! In the middle of battle I get down right dice-thirsty! Cool

I've never liked the escalating command points. A larger army should be more unwieldly. It would be interesting to formulate the ideal army size for four command actions. 1500 would probably leave you with a mitt full of cards, whereas 2500 may leave you CA starved.

Say a command action costs 500 points and you get 3 free. In a 2500 point game you could play 2000 points and four command actions, or 2500 points and three.
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Kevin
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 03:52:59 pm »

We tested out the value of a CA in Alexander and Persia and found that it was worth around 150 points of army build; maybe slightly more.
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gull2112
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2012, 05:13:14 pm »

We tested out the value of a CA in Alexander and Persia and found that it was worth around 150 points of army build; maybe slightly more.
I think that they certainly should be put on a sliding scale. Imagine if you had 0 comand actions. That first one would be worth quite a bit. Buying one additional beyond the standard allotment, 150 seems about right.

But, if you say you can have 2000 points and four CAs or 2500 points and 3 CAs, now it gets a little different. Definitely not yes, definitely not no, it depends on the situation.

For the same reason, at 2000 points four command actions seems about right, but at 1500 points, I'm always wishing I had one more. The point that brings this to my attention is Marcus' best practice of shaving off a command action when he's got a 4000 point build. The CA allotment schedule works great at 2000 points and less so as you deviate from that point.
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Kevin
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2012, 08:29:54 pm »

Quote
But, if you say you can have 2000 points and four CAs or 2500 points and 3 CAs, now it gets a little different. Definitely not yes, definitely not no, it depends on the situation.

2500 with 3.  An absolute no brainer, and virtually impossible to lose.  (Yes you'll lose every once in a while--about as often as the side with the bigger army gets annihilated in the "last stand" scenario.)

True that with 0 things get rather hinky.
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elgin_j
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2012, 07:27:30 am »

We tested out the value of a CA in Alexander and Persia and found that it was worth around 150 points of army build; maybe slightly more.

Does that suggest that CCs at 25pts a pop are a steal?
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Kevin
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2012, 08:46:00 am »

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Does that suggest that CCs at 25pts a pop are a steal?

Quite the opposite, yes?  A typical games goes 6-to-12 turns. ( 6-to-12 ) * 25 = 150-to-300.   In other words, you get up to twice as many cards if you draw them over the course of the game than if you buy them initially.

Of course, if giving up a CA got you 500 points, then you could give up a CA in exchange for 20 (!) command cards, meaning you'd have the entire deck in your hand by the time the armies met.


The Persian army ability gives you 175 points for a CA, but slaps a 10-point surcharge on command cards, so that you get 5 cards rather than 7 if you give up a CA and spend it all on cards.  Though that was as much for flavor reasons as for balance.  Also the opponent gets 2 free points of Foresight (regardless of what you spend the 175 on).

-------------------

It's possible that I gave a slightly overestimate of the value of a CA, and that it should have been "150 points of perhaps slightly more less."  But 150 is as good an estimate as any, at least for the first two CAs.  More than that and your army starts to get really stupid and uncontrollable, and the free pinches your opponent would get will make them more valuable.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 03:42:26 pm by Kevin » Logged

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gull2112
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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2012, 08:04:26 am »

Quote
But, if you say you can have 2000 points and four CAs or 2500 points and 3 CAs, now it gets a little different. Definitely not yes, definitely not no, it depends on the situation.

2500 with 3.  An absolute no brainer, and virtually impossible to lose.  (Yes you'll lose every once in a while--about as often as the side with the bigger army gets annihilated in the "last stand" scenario.)

True that with 0 things get rather hinky.
Kevin, I must respectably disagree with you on this. If you face a 2500 point army with the idea that it is short CAs, you can force some very unfavorable situations on it. I certainly do not say its a sure win, but like Fezzig in A Princess Bride, you have to understand that it requires different tactics.

Think of how often you feel hamstrung in 1500 point games with only 3 CAs, now imagine an army almost twice the size. Perhaps the Victory conditions would also affact your choice.

I still am a strong advocate of the CA constant. Four being the effective Command ability of a commander. Whether or not you had a 1500 or a 3000 point army.

Another possibility is limiting the number of cards that could be bought per turn to four, so in larger games a player wouldn't neccessarily end up with more cards in his hand than god.

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BubblePig
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2012, 01:43:37 pm »

I played the scenario where I got somewhere between 100 and 200 extra build points in exchange for only being able to command one third of my army on any given turn and it felt like a bargain to me. Having 3 command actions to spend wherever I like for 500 extra points sounds even more favorable. I would even consider 500 extra build points and only 2 CAs, depending on the faction, but that is where IMO it starts to get twitchy. That is anecdotal evidence, but I also know that Kevin and Jaime played around with sacrificing a CA for extra build points quite a lot in the Persia/Alexander playtesting. So I am going to have to side with Kevin on this one, Gull.
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