New player in Atlanta

[dboeren]

I'd seen Battlegrounds once before, at Gencon years ago - right after the T-Rex came out I believe because they were showing him off at the booth.  Anyway, I watched a few minutes but didn't have time to wait for an opening to demo it.

Fast forward to this past Saturday when I finally played a full game.  I took the Lizardmen versus the Ravenwood Elves.  The decks were pre-made by my opponent who has all the factions.

2xSwarmling Bowmen
2xTrog Warriors
2xTyrant Warriors
2xTriceratops Herds

vs.

1xBearkin
3xBear Packs
2xBrownies
2xRavenwood Archers
1xRavenwood Swordsmen

It ended in a slaughter. All three Bear Packs got pinched and his heavy hitters were out of the game.  The Brownies were shot full of arrows.  One unit survived to pinch one of my Trike herds but only momentarily.  After this and some Trogs getting into melee with his archers my opponent conceded.  On our side there was some assorted damage, and one of my Tyrant Warriors was down to 1 health (I'd held them in place with Cold Blooded) but not units were wiped out.  Of course, he did mention that this Ravenwood list was a bit experimental so maybe it just wasn't that strong of a list to begin with.

Anyway, it seemed like a pretty good game and I'd like to investigate further.  And to that end I've got some questions for the more experienced players...

1.  I'm not sure what rules document I should be looking at.  I've heard tell of the 3.0 rules, 3.1, 3.5, 4.0 beta, and Uvula Bob's reformatted rules (not sure what version those are based on).  This makes it hard to know where to start.  Can someone explain the difference between these and give me a link(s) to what I should be using?  I'm a programmer so I understand there is probably one that's the current official version and a newer one that's maybe not 100% final yet so go ahead and give me both if you like.

2.  From what I can tell (and correct me if I'm wrong), there isn't much going on for official new releases anymore.  Dark Elves are quite old now and there hasn't been any new fantasy race announced since then that I can find.  Instead, it looks like the emphasis has shifted towards fan-created factions, and I'm not certain but it looks like maybe some of these can potentially be official someday?  Wuxing looks a lot like a community project to create an official new faction once the creators are satisfied with it.

3.  If that's the case that fan-made factions are popular in the game - are these generally accepted to use during casual play?  Or are they considered potentially unbalanced/half-baked and not really used outside their creators and local group?  If they are generally accepted, I would expect that people would want to make their decks available through services like Artscow and yet this is not so.  Is this a card dimensions issue, a feeling that most fan factions are not sufficiently ready yet, or some other reason?

4.  I've ordered starters + reinforcements for Lizardmen and Ravenwood Elves.  I understand that there have been some changes and their reference cards are no longer correct - what exactly do I need to replace and where do I find it?


My own background is in minis wargaming.  I've spent about the last 7 years playing Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, Uncharted Seas, Malifaux, etc...  But, as time goes on I have less time to spend on such things and it can be hard to find opponents.  Summoner Wars is nice, because you can easily get new people into it, it's inexpensive, and you can teach them quickly, but it's only a light snack of a game.  I'm looking for something to sort of be the next level up.  Still not too bad to introduce to people and with a minimal investment, but meatier so that you can feel you played a real battle afterward.  Battlegrounds looks like it might be a good fit for that, given sufficiently well made player aids to help with all the modifiers, etc...

Anyway, my goal here is to get a good feel for what the community is like and the current state of the game.  If you think of something important I've forgotten to ask feel free to tell me about that too.  Oh, and one final question...

5.  Is there going to be any Battleground presence or events at Gencon this year?  I'd be interested in playing in a tournament if there is going to be one.  I didn't find one in the last couple of years but maybe I was looking in the wrong category.

[dboeren]

Do people generally:
1.  show up with their armies pre-made
2.  build/modify their armies after seeing what faction they're up against
3.  build/modify their armies after seeing exactly what list they're up against
4.  something else

And, one rules question my opponent didn't know the answer to.  Is pre-measuring allowed in this game?

[Uriel Doombringer]

Hello - welcome to the fellowship. Sounds like you had a great game!

A few answers to your questions:
1) The version 3.0 rules are quite playable and I'd recommend you go ahead with them. Niko can correct me on what's the most current working set of rules, if you're interested in testing out some of the directions we are experimenting on going in.
2) The upcoming factions include Alexander and Persia, Wuxing, and Spanish vs. Aztecs. These are all official faction developments which we are expecting to see printed (art difficulties have slowed down publishing). After that two other fantasy factions are in serious development: Empire of the Deeps and Amazons. In addition to that there are lots of unofficial factions out there like Angels and Demons, including some wacky ones like the Revolution! Chad and Niko can speak more to our release schedule, but there's a general desire to get the ball rolling again!
3) The factions in serious development are usually posted to the forums regularly as they are developed to get broader input. Certainly no-one would stop you from developing your own factions, though pointing the units is a complicated process.
4) Ooo- I'm bad at remembering where this information is, perhaps Niko, Chad or Kevin knows where the errata is?
5) I don't know about Gen-con -- we have several tournament events up here in the North East in Boston and at the Council of Five Nations Con in upstate New York.

For army selection:
The typical rule is that armies are built after you know your opponent, the terrain, and scenario. Sometimes it's fun to bring pre-built armies (we did that in one tournament last year)

Pre-measuring is always allowed in battleground, at all times and everywhere. Pro-players often project where their units are going to end up several turns out to best execute shenanigans.

Happy playing! (Until the House of Midnight brings your people into their rightful place of subjugation).

[Mexico]

To answer your later, easier questions:

In a tournament, players generally pick a faction and stick to it for the whole thing. They then build an army based on the opponent's faction and any terrain or special situations.

In casual play, it's quite common for players to show up with a build already in mind, which may get tweaked depending on the occasion.

Except for novice/learner games, you usually don't know your enemy's forces until you start deployment.

As far as pre-measurement, it's almost universally accepted to some degree. It's pretty much a requirement in serious tournament play. That's not to say that everyone cares to do it, but it's certainly an option. Depends on how anal a general you are.  

[RushAss]

First of all, welcome to the game and welcome to the boards!

1.  I'm not sure what rules document I should be looking at.  I've heard tell of the 3.0 rules, 3.1, 3.5, 4.0 beta, and Uvula Bob's reformatted rules (not sure what version those are based on).  This makes it hard to know where to start.  Can someone explain the difference between these and give me a link(s) to what I should be using?  I'm a programmer so I understand there is probably one that's the current official version and a newer one that's maybe not 100% final yet so go ahead and give me both if you like.

The current rule set is the 3.0 rules which can be found here:
http://www.yourmovegames.com/userfiles/file/3_5x5%20Battleground%20Rulebook%20Dark%20Elves.pdf
Link is off of tis page here:
http://www.yourmovegames.com/rules_faq.html
There are some changes in these rules and the updates can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K96P5uSvfX3KDDnEuJmyw4IP1Tlv0i-rpsdvoyhrBR0/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

To cause further confusion, there are several rules alterations that are in the works that will be placed into a PDF on the site somewhere once they have been finalized.  I'm thinking we are about 2-3 months away from that.  Since you are beginning, the 3.0 rules should work just fine.  Just be wary about playing Dark Elves for starters because there has been a lot of post-release tinkering with that faction rules-wise.

2.  From what I can tell (and correct me if I'm wrong), there isn't much going on for official new releases anymore.  Dark Elves are quite old now and there hasn't been any new fantasy race announced since then that I can find.  Instead, it looks like the emphasis has shifted towards fan-created factions, and I'm not certain but it looks like maybe some of these can potentially be official someday?  Wuxing looks a lot like a community project to create an official new faction once the creators are satisfied with it.

Wuxing is actually going to be the next official Fantasy release.  There is also a new Historical set (Alexander vs. Persia) that has been completed for some time now, YMG is just having difficulty with the art work.

3.  If that's the case that fan-made factions are popular in the game - are these generally accepted to use during casual play?  Or are they considered potentially unbalanced/half-baked and not really used outside their creators and local group?  If they are generally accepted, I would expect that people would want to make their decks available through services like Artscow and yet this is not so.  Is this a card dimensions issue, a feeling that most fan factions are not sufficiently ready yet, or some other reason?

Just about all of the fan based factions are in various degrees of baking  The ones that probably get the highest amount of play testing are the ones develpoed by Hanibal.  

4.  I've ordered starters + reinforcements for Lizardmen and Ravenwood Elves.  I understand that there have been some changes and their reference cards are no longer correct - what exactly do I need to replace and where do I find it?

Official Errata can be found here:
http://www.yourmovegames.com/pages/battleground_errata

There are some further changes to various command cards for various factions coming down the pipe and they will be included in the PDF I mentioned answering question #1 above.  For now you should be able to have a full gaming experience without these changes anyways.

5.  Is there going to be any Battleground presence or events at Gencon this year?  I'd be interested in playing in a tournament if there is going to be one.  I didn't find one in the last couple of years but maybe I was looking in the wrong category.

I can't answer that, but I can tell of you of up comming Battleground events.  Check out the "Conventions" thread here:
http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/board,5.0.html

I'm running an event at Dexcon in New Jersey the weekend after July 4th:
http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,4856.0.html

And there will be a ton of Battleground stuff in early October at Council of 5 Nations in Schenectady, New York:
http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,4788.0.html

Do people generally:
1.  show up with their armies pre-made
2.  build/modify their armies after seeing what faction they're up against
3.  build/modify their armies after seeing exactly what list they're up against
4.  something else

1 and 2 with 2 being the most common.  

And, one rules question my opponent didn't know the answer to.  Is pre-measuring allowed in this game?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that, but just let me assume that you mean to ask if you are allowed to measure the distance between units as they are being deployed.  If that is the case, then yes you can (and often times should!).  If that's not what your asking, clarify and I'll answer as best I can.

EDIT:  It appears that I've been beaten to the punch by a handful of minutes - LOL
don't let Uriel intimidate you with his talk of Dark Elven dominance, he's mostly harmless as long as we make sure he gets all of his meds.

[dboeren]

Thanks for all the replies.  I'll download the links you've all posted and go from there.  Should get my decks by this weekend I think and be able to try something out.

On premeasuring, I was referring both to during setup and during play.  For instance, I might check to see if walk + shoot is enough range to hit you this turn before deciding whether to keep my orders as they are or spend a point to change them.  Stuff like that.  Most games have a firm policy one way or the other - sounds like this one does allow premeasuring.  I've played systems that work both ways, so anything's fine with me as long as everyone knows the rules in advance.

Good to know that official development is still going on, even if slowly or with delays.  It would be great to see more factions someday as well as more expansions for the existing ones, although that may be a little much to expect.  Official factions are better than unofficial ones, because you can always use them.

I'll keep away from Dark Elves for now, probably the next faction I'd pick up is Umenzi.  Gotta love the heffalumps.

[Kevin]

Welcome, dboeren!  Just a few things to add to the excellent replies of RushAss & others.

- The latest rulebook is 3.0.  A new rulebook comes out with each set; the next one will almost certainly be titled 3.1.  It will incorporate all the rule changes listed in the google document.  So "3.1" is shorthand for "3.0 + official rule changes listed in the google document."   4.0 is Uvulabob's (presumed abandoned) project to simplify the rules.  I've never heard of 3.5, but presumably that's identical to 3.1.



- Pre-measuring too much is considered annoying during deployment, but do it if you need to.  It's common to pre-measure a move--I recommend moving around a "proxy card" until you've decided exactly where your real unit should go.


- I'm the point person on Wuxing.  My estimate is another 6 months of playtesting, followed by finishing up the artwork and printing the card.  We're probably talking a year until it is available for purchase, though maybe 9 months if we're lucky.  


- Regarding fan factions, I've very seldom seen them played outside their playgroup.  As you can imagine, they vary immensely in quality & balance.  (It takes a LOT of work to get a faction right; with some notable exceptions most fan factions haven't seen that amount of work put in.)  That said, if a fan faction sparks your interest, by all means go for it!  They also have the benefit of being free.  

For instance, I might check to see if walk + shoot is enough range to hit you this turn before deciding whether to keep my orders as they are or spend a point to change them.

Give your unit an order of R (or L or S) with the "m+s speed modifier" and the unit will do what you want it to do without spending a command action.  

I'm running an event at Dexcon in New Jersey the weekend after July 4th:
http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,4856.0.html

And there will be a ton of Battleground stuff in early October at Council of 5 Nations in Schenectady, New York:
http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,4788.0.html

I'm personally looking forward to both of these events. and hope to see you there!  RushAss neglected to mention the third event (albeit one tentatively scheduled for a full 10 months in the future) in the Northeast--the Championship Tournament in Cambridge (near Boston), Mass.  Here's a link to the Feb 2012 touranment.

probably the next faction I'd pick up is Umenzi.  Gotta love the heffalumps.

After the Umenzi, I strongly recommend you pick up Kingdoms and a Terrain Pack.  The addition of terrain, scenarios, and special conditions gives the game almost infinite variety!

Anyway, my goal here is to get a good feel for what the community is like and the current state of the game.

Check out the "Session Reports" section for some great write ups, often with photos, of games which have been played...and feel free to post your own at some point!  

[dboeren]

"3.1" is shorthand for "3.0 + official rule changes listed in the google document.

Ah, that makes sense then.  So I'll use 3.0 and the google doc for now, and then pick up 3.1 (for simplification) once that's out.  I'll probably wait until 3.1 to try to introduce the game to more players if that's going to be fairly soon.  One doc is much easier to sell to people than a doc + errata.

- I'm the point person on Wuxing.  My estimate is another 6 months of playtesting, followed by finishing up the artwork and printing the card.  We're probably talking a year until it is available for purchase, though maybe 9 months if we're lucky.

Good luck with the project then.  If I manage to get up to speed in time I'll try to help out by submitting some session reports.  I've been involved as a playtester in other minis games before.

For instance, I might check to see if walk + shoot is enough range to hit you this turn before deciding whether to keep my orders as they are or spend a point to change them.

Give your unit an order of R (or L or S) with the "m+s speed modifier" and the unit will do what you want it to do without spending a command action.  

OK, that modifier didn't come up in our test game, I'll have to look it up.  We just stuck with the simple ones of a speed modifier or a target modifier.

After the Umenzi, I strongly recommend you pick up Kingdoms and a Terrain Pack.  The addition of terrain, scenarios, and special conditions gives the game almost infinite variety!

I've got some flat (felt or paper) terrain from other minis games so I may just be able to use that, but I would like to pick up Kingdoms.

Check out the "Session Reports" section for some great write ups, often with photos, of games which have been played...and feel free to post your own at some point!  

Will do

[Kevin]

I'll probably wait until 3.1 to try to introduce the game to more players if that's going to be fairly soon.

Please don't wait!  For one thing, the next rulebook will likely come out no sooner than the next faction comes out = 2013.  Next, the 3.0 rules on their own are perfectly playable.  The "errata" mostly deal with (relatively minor) balance issues and rare (but annoying when they happen) situations.

[dboeren]

I was mistakenly thinking that the 3.1 rules were in the next month or two.  If that's not so, then I agree - no reason to wait.

Anyway...  I've managed to arrange to borrow the complete collection of decks and will be teaching the game to a fellow minis wargamer this weekend so we'll see how that goes.  He's usually an Elf fan so I'll probably give him Ravenwood or High Elves (his choice) and I think I may try out the Umenzi.  If we can find time for multiple games I'll likely split between them and Lizardmen.

Anyway, we're slated to meet up on Sunday if all goes well so that leaves me a few evenings to try to read through the rulebook and learn how everything works.  Hopefully we'll get most of the important stuff right anyway.

I'll go through some battle reports and try to settle on some reasonable army lists beforehand so we can jump right in.

[RushAss]

Sounds like a solid plan dboeren and please don't be shy about asking questions here, you're in good hands between all of us.

And oh yeah, The Umenzi are a hoot 

[Niko White]

Umenzi vs. High Elves is a classic matchup, though a newer player is more likely be able to face them down with Ravenwood since the HEs have a, uh, numbers issue there 

[dboeren]

Just curious, what makes this a classic matchup?  Is it something story related, or a nice contrast in playstyles being sort of elites vs. swarmy, or what?

Also, I do have one rules question.  It's about the final rush movement and pinching.

Looking at diagram 1.4.6.3.3 in the rulebook (page 31).  Is it correct to say that the left unit would move to engage the enemy's front edge and the right unit can snap 90 degrees to engage their flank and cause a pinch?

I know you could ALSO choose to perform a Two's Company, but the rules allow you to perform Final Rushes in any order you like so unless there's something unusual going on nearby I expect you'd want to pinch (being much stronger) which can be accomplished by doing the left unit first.

However, this seems a bit... easy?  I haven't so much outmaneuvered my opponent as simply had a wider line than him.  I need to lay down some cards and take measurements, but if the only requirement is 3.5" (typical speed unit) from middle point to middle point that's not too hard to get.  Is there another requirement I'm missing?

Obviously the potential to pinch is there, it's a question of at what point I can do it immediately versus having to spend another turn's worth of movement to move around their flank.  I think it's OK if the pinch is somewhat easy to get (both sides can do it after all), I just want to know exactly where the line is because it's such a powerful mechanic that it's likely to come up quite often.

[Kevin]

Just curious, what makes this a classic matchup?  Is it something story related, or a nice contrast in playstyles being sort of elites vs. swarmy, or what?

He means the latter.

Looking at diagram 1.4.6.3.3 in the rulebook (page 31).  Is it correct to say that the left unit would move to engage the enemy's front edge and the right unit can snap 90 degrees to engage their flank and cause a pinch?

Correct!

However, this seems a bit... easy?

Nope.   Assuming there are allied units nearby, it's extremely easy to maneuver a unit to deny line-of-sight to your unit's edge, put a side point out of range, or otherwise position your card so that it can't be pinched.  In other words, once they'd learned the game, the "defender" on page 31 would have spent a command action to take direct control of his unit the turn before and prevented that situation from happening in the first place.

Again, I encourage you to read some session reports (particulary mine   ) and observe how units very seldom get pinched right off the bat (and much of that time they do the unit is being deliberately sacrificed).

[dboeren]

Nope.   Assuming there are allied units nearby, it's extremely easy to maneuver a unit to deny line-of-sight to your unit's edge, put a side point out of range, or otherwise position your card so that it can't be pinched.  In other words, once they'd learned the game, the "defender" on page 31 would have spent a command action to take direct control of his unit the turn before and prevented that situation from happening in the first place.

Again, I encourage you to read some session reports (particulary mine   ) and observe how units very seldom get pinched right off the bat (and much of that time they do the unit is being deliberately sacrificed).

I see, it's under "1.4.6.3.4 Open Path".  Part of it is about the actual path, part is about LOS to the edge-center.  I had looked at "1.4.6.3.2 Visibility" and it only requires LOS to anywhere on the card, so I missed that part.

That makes sense.  In a real battle, there would typically be another unit there (other than at the ends of the line), and at the ends of the line it's likely you would react as you said - swiveling the unit to put the side edge out of LOS or controlling the distance  to prevent the pinch, either of which is easy to do with a command point.