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Author Topic: House Rules: Shooting & Routing  (Read 2650 times)
elgin_j
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2012, 05:05:06 am »

It's worth remembering that a skirmisher unit is, on paper, less likely to suffer missile casualties than block infantry due to a lower density of troops.  To that end, forcing them to flee when other units don't, doesn't seem fitting with the unit concept.  While I appreciate that they are harder to hit than block infantry perhaps it is best to go with the 1 CA option.
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gornhorror
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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2012, 10:41:13 am »

Well, Marcus and I got together last night to shoot the breeze and while doing it we threw in a a game of battleground.  We decided to incorporate the disrupted rule for archery units.  I think that this rule suggestion is a good one.  I really like it so far.  I had a unit of goblin bowmen that did 3 damage to a unit of wolfkin on the approach.  They failed their rout check and just stayed put.  Being wolfkin, they did automatically revert to hold and were given the close order on the next turn.  So all it did was cost a command action to keep them with the line.  This, to me, seems more fair than having a unit run away.  Having your line crumble and be vulnerable to pinches before you even engage.

In addition, my army had two troll units.  They do seem a little weak for the points.  Healing one point of damage every other turn doesn't quite cut it imho.  I know people frown down upon changing the actual front of the cards but Hannibals suggestion of giving them a green/yellow/red stat line would probably be a good fix.  That being said, doing that would take some of the flavor of the unit away.  My suggestion of doubling up the regeneration will be tested the next time we get together.
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Kevin
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« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2012, 07:08:22 pm »

Quote
Being wolfkin, they did automatically revert to hold and were given the close order on the next turn.


From a super-technical point of view, this would not be correct.  The Wolfkin Card reads:

Quote
If Wolfkin Routs, it automatically Rallies at end of turn.


Since the Wolfkin was Disrupted, it didn't rout.  Also by definition disrupted units don't "rally."

Of course, I do agree with you that the Wolfkin should take only one CA.

-----------------

So I'm thinking the least bad solution may be to annoy Chad and change:

Quote
     1.1.5 Disrupted Order:  The unit does not move, and may not cast spells or make ranged attacks.  If the unit becomes engaged it will suffer a penalty when fighting.  A unit with this order may not be given any modifiers.  It costs an extra Command Action to Direct Control or change the Standing Order of a unit with the Disrupted order.

to...

     1.1.5 Disrupted Order:  The unit does not move, and may not cast spells or make ranged attacks.  If the unit becomes engaged it will suffer a penalty when fighting.  A unit with this order may not be given any modifiers.  It costs an extra Command Action to Direct Control or change the Standing Order of a unit with the Disrupted order unless the unit is a type that can, under any circumstances, automatically rally when routing.


And it does help make Skirmishers a better screen for infantry, a job they currently underperform at.


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Kevin
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2012, 07:13:12 pm »

Quote
3.0 Combat Phase
3.0.1 Combat Phase Order:  The combat phase contains three individual steps, each described below. They are:
1)   Choose Defenders

2)   Cast Spells
   1.   Active Player casts spells
   2.   Spell Consequences

3)   Ranged Combat
   1.   Active Player makes ranged attacks
   2.   Ranged Combat Consequences

4)   Engaged Combat
   1.   Active player’s attacks
   2.   Non-Active player’s attacks
   3.   Engaged Combat Consequences

And in other news, I missed this part earlier.  I like the "Disrupted" thing a lot, but I don't like making ranged attacks happen first.  Too artificial/gamey (Each combat turn represents many swings of a swords/arrows fired.) and it feels like a combination of too powerful and really annoying:  by the wording of the rule, you can shoot an engaged enemy and force it to rout (since it's engaged) that turn before it can get in a swing...yuck.  Undecided

Anyway, it seemed like that part hadn't been discussed.  I'll test Disrupted at Championship, as well as the no-engaged-target penalty, but am not mucking with the turn order.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 07:36:32 pm by Kevin » Logged

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gull2112
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« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2012, 07:32:01 pm »

Quote
3.0 Combat Phase
3.0.1 Combat Phase Order:  The combat phase contains three individual steps, each described below. They are:
1)   Choose Defenders

2)   Cast Spells
   1.   Active Player casts spells
   2.   Spell Consequences

3)   Ranged Combat
   1.   Active Player makes ranged attacks
   2.   Ranged Combat Consequences

4)   Engaged Combat
   1.   Active player’s attacks
   2.   Non-Active player’s attacks
   3.   Engaged Combat Consequences

And in other news, I missed this part earlier.  I like the "Disrupted" think a lot, but I don't like making ranged attacks happen first.  Too artificial/gamey (Each combat turn represents many swings of a swords/arrows fired.) and it feels like a combination of too powerful and really annoying:  by the wording of the rule, you can shoot an engaged enemy and force it to rout (since it's engaged) that turn before it can get in a swing...yuck.  Undecided

Anyway, it seemed like that part hadn't been discussed.  I'll test Disrupted at Championship, but am not mucking with the turn order.


It is also likely to cause many missed shooting oppertunities as players sudenly remember after they begin rolling for engaged combat that they wanted to fire something else. No sir, I don't like it.

As I mentioned here http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,4686.0.html lazyj and I just threw down and my Trolls did awesomely. The trick with Trolls is to not tank them vs. another 400+ point unit. They are not tanks and they will lose. BG is a game of match ups and just reasoning that your heavy will cancel their heavy is a formula for epic failure (do not gainsay me on this as I speak from many personal experiences Embarrassed), this is doubly so for Trolls because they cannot stand to similarly priced units. However, they chew quite nicely through weaker units. Think of them as the bulleys of the battlefield. If you want tanks try the Marauders for a mere 367 or the even more economical axeorcs for 300. Where they differ from those two is the 5" MC which can lash to 7," plus they have a plethora of green boxes, and with regeneration they tend to stay in the green yet a turn longer.
As you will see in the battle report when James gets it up, I had two trolls twos company some Hawk spearmen with predictable results.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 07:36:08 pm by gull2112 » Logged

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Hannibal
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« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2012, 03:48:17 pm »

Wow, lots of responses...

I don't think Flying needs its own exception.  If a unit is flying, presumably it got damaged with ranged attacks.  Remember, you can't land on the turn that you get new orders, so it keeps the units from attacking for at least 2 turns and gets them shot again.

Not that I have any real objection to them routing other than KISS -- only treat something differently if it really needs it.

Fair enough.  I just didn't want to make any unit out of proportion better.


So I'm thinking the least bad solution may be to annoy Chad and change:

Quote
     1.1.5 Disrupted Order:  The unit does not move, and may not cast spells or make ranged attacks.  If the unit becomes engaged it will suffer a penalty when fighting.  A unit with this order may not be given any modifiers.  It costs an extra Command Action to Direct Control or change the Standing Order of a unit with the Disrupted order.

to...

     1.1.5 Disrupted Order:  The unit does not move, and may not cast spells or make ranged attacks.  If the unit becomes engaged it will suffer a penalty when fighting.  A unit with this order may not be given any modifiers.  It costs an extra Command Action to Direct Control or change the Standing Order of a unit with the Disrupted order unless the unit is a type that can, under any circumstances, automatically rally when routing.


And it does help make Skirmishers a better screen for infantry, a job they currently underperform at.

I'd agree with you on this, and would also break it down into a separate sub-category.  1.1.5.1 Disrupted & Automatic Rally.


Quote
And in other news, I missed this part earlier.  I like the "Disrupted" thing a lot, but I don't like making ranged attacks happen first.  Too artificial/gamey (Each combat turn represents many swings of a swords/arrows fired.) and it feels like a combination of too powerful and really annoying:  by the wording of the rule, you can shoot an engaged enemy and force it to rout (since it's engaged) that turn before it can get in a swing...yuck.

No, that's not what would happen.  I haven't gone back and spelled this out, but the "consequences" step is a copy of Step 4 of 3.0.1 Combat Phase Order.  Namely they trigger the effects of 3.3 Destroyed Units and 3.4 Damaged Units.  In 3.4 it says: 

Quote
When a unit is knocked into the yellow, or if a unit takes any damage at all in the red, that unit must make a rout check (2.1) at the next available opportunity. Damage that doesn’t trigger these conditions or destroy the unit has no immediate effect.

Each step of the Combat Phase happens first, you'll never take a Rout check from shooting before getting a chance to fight.  So the active player would cast spells, then resolve the effects (damage/hexes/blesses).  Then the active player will make ranged attacks, then resolve the effects (usually damaged or destroyed).  Then both players make engaged attacks, then resolve the effects.  Then after all that, any Courage Checks will be done in the Post-Combat Courage phase. 

Now what can happen is the following situations:

1)  My Hawk Swordsmen are engaged with his Orc Axemen.  His Goblin Bowmen shoot my swordsmen, knocking them into the Yellow.  When it comes time for the Swordsmento attack, they will do so at (-1)-0/-0 for being in the Yellow.

2)  My Hawk Swordsmen are engaged with his Orc Axemen, with both units in the Red.  My Longbowmen shoot his Axemen, and kill them.  When it comes time to make engaged attacks, the Axemen have already been destroyed and will be removed.

3)  My Hawk Swordsmen are engaged with his Orc Axemen.  By the end of engaged attacks, my Swordsmen have been put in the Red and his Axemen have been destroyed.  In the post-combat courage phase, my Swordsmen will make a Rout check but because they are not engaged they will only be Disrupted.


Quote
Anyway, it seemed like that part hadn't been discussed.  I'll test Disrupted at Championship, as well as the no-engaged-target penalty, but am not mucking with the turn order.

I would ask that before folks take the line-item veto to these rules that they try them at least twice.  We have playtested these rules approximately 8-9 times before posting them here, and these changes are included as a single package for a reason.  Specifically, the Disrupted rules take away quite a bit from shooting and tweaking the turn order like we did is there specifically to give a little bit back to shooting to help encourage combined arms.  As they stand now, the package of rules dings a pure stand and shoot pretty hard but allows a combined arms to do things like trigger special rules & cards that have effects for when a unit is in the Yellow/Red, plus allows a shooting unit to kill an engaged unit before it can fight back.  Otherwise, we're back to penalizing people who take 140-160 pts and pull them off the line.
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gull2112
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« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2012, 04:27:44 pm »

So what you are really saying is that missile fire results take effect immediately, whereas engaged damage takes effect at the end of the round after combat.
Since, in the proper rules you must indicate all missile attacks first, before resolving any combat, this makes sense and I like it, but it does change things a bit and I will want to playtest it to better understand all ramifications.
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Kevin
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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2012, 06:02:09 pm »

Quote
Each step of the Combat Phase happens first, you'll never take a Rout check from shooting before getting a chance to fight.  So the active player would cast spells, then resolve the effects (damage/hexes/blesses).  Then the active player will make ranged attacks, then resolve the effects (usually damaged or destroyed).  Then both players make engaged attacks, then resolve the effects.  Then after all that, any Courage Checks will be done in the Post-Combat Courage phase. 

Now what can happen is the following situations:

1)  My Hawk Swordsmen are engaged with his Orc Axemen.  His Goblin Bowmen shoot my swordsmen, knocking them into the Yellow.  When it comes time for the Swordsmento attack, they will do so at (-1)-0/-0 for being in the Yellow.

Ah.  OK, got it.  Smiley

My opinion has gone from "yike!" to <shrug>   Basically, the only difference is that ranged attacks will sometimes cause a unit to lose a die on its attack and, more rarely, pop an almost-dead unit before it can attack.

Seems like a pretty minor effect.

I'm still hestitant to doing this one at Championship, because there's already a very large number or rules which are being tested, and the (game effect) / (rule verbiage) of this one is pretty small.  But I'd be fine with it going through.
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Hannibal
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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2012, 06:36:08 pm »

My opinion has gone from "yike!" to <shrug>   Basically, the only difference is that ranged attacks will sometimes cause a unit to lose a die on its attack and, more rarely, pop an almost-dead unit before it can attack.

Seems like a pretty minor effect.

It becomes more important the more a fight becomes a grind-match.  Putting guys from the Yellow to Red can mean that the engaged guy's Blue cards become more valuable.  Also, if the opponent only has 1-2 boxes left, you might be willing to risk a red card on that ranged attack to deny him the chance to attack back.  I agree it is a minor tweak, but it does actually come up.


Quote
I'm still hestitant to doing this one at Championship, because there's already a very large number or rules which are being tested, and the (game effect) / (rule verbiage) of this one is pretty small.  But I'd be fine with it going through.

Well, you are going to incorporate the tweak about Sub-phases for spells, right?  This just incorporates that a little bit.  It's actually not hard at all to do on the table top:  cast spells, apply any curses/blesses/damage.  Make ranged attacks, apply any damage.  Make engaged attacks...



So what you are really saying is that missile fire results take effect immediately, whereas engaged damage takes effect at the end of the round after combat.

That's de facto what happens.  What technically happens is:

Step 1)  Players assign defenders:  who they're going to attack with spells, ranged attacks, engaged attacks.  (Most people do this when they attack, and really it only matters for when you're making ranged attacks as the active player, because you may kill the guy with your engaged attacks and be unable to switch target with your ranged attack.  Mind you, this part is already in the existing rules).

Step 2) Active player casts spells:  Play any cards, rolls dice.
Step 2a)  Assign Hexes as result of spell
Step 2b)  Assign blesses as result of spell
Step 2c)  Mark damage as a result of spell & note any needed rout checks at post-combat courage phase.
Step 2d)  Remove units destroyed as a result of spell.

(Note: This isn't the actual way it needs to be done.  a-d can be done in any order, it's just it all falls under the "consequences" part)

Step 3)  Active player makes ranged attack:  play cards, roll dice.
Step 3a)  Mark damage as a result of attack & note any needed rout checks at post-combat courage phase.
Step 3b)  Remove units destroyed as a result of attack.
Step 3c) Perform any other special rule as a result of attack (in the future there may be some "poisoned arrows" ranged attack)

Step 4)  Active player makes engaged attack:  play cards, roll dice.
Step 4a)  Mark damage as a result of attack & note any needed rout checks at post-combat courage phase.
Step 4b)  Remove units destroyed as a result of attack.
Step 4c) Perform any other special rule as a result of attack (in the future there may be some "crippling blow" engaged attack)

End of Combat Phase.  Move to Post-Combat Courage phase.

Note, if you put a guy into the Yellow/Red during the Spells or Ranged Attack part, the lost dice would also take effect in the "mark damage" part.  So when it came time to make his engaged attack, he already counts as being in the Yellow.  Basically, every ranged attack has goes first, like Pila currently do.
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RushAss
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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2012, 10:39:53 am »

Well, Marcus and I got together last night to shoot the breeze and while doing it we threw in a a game of battleground.  We decided to incorporate the disrupted rule for archery units.  I think that this rule suggestion is a good one.  I really like it so far.  I had a unit of goblin bowmen that did 3 damage to a unit of wolfkin on the approach.  They failed their rout check and just stayed put.  Being wolfkin, they did automatically revert to hold and were given the close order on the next turn.  So all it did was cost a command action to keep them with the line.  This, to me, seems more fair than having a unit run away.  Having your line crumble and be vulnerable to pinches before you even engage.

In addition, my army had two troll units.  They do seem a little weak for the points.  Healing one point of damage every other turn doesn't quite cut it imho.  I know people frown down upon changing the actual front of the cards but Hannibals suggestion of giving them a green/yellow/red stat line would probably be a good fix.  That being said, doing that would take some of the flavor of the unit away.  My suggestion of doubling up the regeneration will be tested the next time we get together.
Yeah, the disrupted thing seemed to have a nice feel to it.  In the above mentioned game I had a Wolfkin unit fail 2 courage checks from ranged fire.  I now regret that I didn't take pics because the game would have made a nice little session report.

While Brook may have an argument about the Trolls, this game would be a lousy indicator for a further Troll fix because his Trolls totally housed my guys.  One of them stood up to a Centaur/Wolfkin pinch and survived!
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Kevin
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« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2012, 02:38:39 pm »

Quote
Quote
I'm still hestitant to doing this one at Championship, because there's already a very large number or rules which are being tested, and the (game effect) / (rule verbiage) of this one is pretty small.  But I'd be fine with it going through.


Well, you are going to incorporate the tweak about Sub-phases for spells, right?  This just incorporates that a little bit.  It's actually not hard at all to do on the table top:  cast spells, apply any curses/blesses/damage.  Make ranged attacks, apply any damage.  Make engaged attacks...

OK, mea culpa for not phrasing my objection correctly.

Look, it's not a bad rule proposal, but from the perspective of its effect on gameplay (as opposed to outcome) it's a MUCH larger change than the sub-phases rule.  The only things which the sub-phases really changes is
a)  It make it clear that spells can't be cast after combat.  Only two factions have spell casters, and many probably assumed that it was always this way to begin with.

b)  It clarified that opponents are chosen before javelin throws.  Again, javelins are only in 3 factions, and most players probably did it this way.  (And most of the time you only have one target anyway; this clarification is only relevant to a twos company.)


-------

On the other hand, your "ranged attacks happen first" affect the way that things are done in EVERY game that there is a shooter shooting at an engaged target. = just about every game where both sides don't go pure close-and-hose.

And in exchange for me having to make sure that people are doing it right, this rule will only actually have an effect on the combat outcome a small fraction of the time.

So basically, I'd be asking everyone to learn and implement a new rule which will totally change the way they're used to playing, in exchange for a minor game effect.  If it were the only special rule I were asking people to learn, then that would be one thing, but it isn't by a long shot.
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elgin_j
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2012, 08:10:36 am »

Has there been any further development of this?
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Kevin
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2012, 10:03:10 am »

At Championship we used "Disrupted" and had no penalty to Shooting into combat.  The response was overall very positive.  (Most folks were 2 thumbs up, though Niko was a bit antsy, and Chad was about 80-20 in favor).  Don't be surprised if those become official sometime soon.

We'll have to work out a couple of minor kinks related to Disrupted, though.  For example, how it interacts with "Aspect of Wolf," or with units being Impulsive.

Exactly zero people present considered the shooting-happens-first thing desirable.
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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2012, 10:28:10 am »

IIRC we also used no shooting into an engagement penalty.
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elgin_j
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2012, 10:43:38 am »

At Championship we used "Disrupted" and had no penalty to Shooting into combat.  The response was overall very positive.  (Most folks were 2 thumbs up, though Niko was a bit antsy, and Chad was about 80-20 in favor).  Don't be surprised if those become official sometime soon.

We'll have to work out a couple of minor kinks related to Disrupted, though.  For example, how it interacts with "Aspect of Wolf," or with units being Impulsive.

Exactly zero people present considered the shooting-happens-first thing desirable.

Could you explain to me the benefits this offers players when selecting archery units.  I understand the thematic flavour but as you've caveated some of Hannibal's suggestions I'm curious as to what exactly this does to make missile units more attractive.
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