Savage/Beastmen/Were-creature Faction - Getting hurt has never felt so good!

[Zelc]

As a side-note, I'm waiting on Hannibal to run costs for these units, so I can see where they're currently landing and make tweaks if necessary.  He's been really busy, and I've told him to take his time .

Just reading through and noted something that I think makes this card unduly powerful.  Note the highlighted sentence.  Now, if I were a thorough bastard, and I pride myself on being exactly that, I would time the use of this card to drop into the yellow and avoid having to take a rout check.  

In effect, you are giving a unit an auto-pass on a courage check for the measly cost of one hit - too powerful.

Remove that part of the card and it looks good to me.

That's honestly the whole point of using these cards .  I've actually thought a lot about the value of this rout bypass mechanic, which is why I changed the faction ability.  If you can get your entire line to pass their first rout check for 1 damage each and no command action use, that's really nice.  As it is, doing so requires some luck and a lot of command cards and actions.

Let's take a look at the non-routing damage first.  The closest comparison is I Kill You Meself.  However, I Kill You Meself is better in several ways.  First, this non-routing damage only works on going into the yellow.  It does nothing for units going into the red, because any damage they take would force a rout check anyway.

Second, I Kill You Meself only needs to be played if a rout check is failed.  A unit rolling at 11 Courage (say a normal Orc line unit with 12 Courage going into the yellow) fails only 38% of the time; that means this non-routing damage is worth at most around 1/3 of the I Kill You Meself command card.

Actually, it's worse than that, because you have to deal more damage to your units.  On average, I Kill You Meself would guarantee three line units succeed their rout checks for 1 damage.  To do the same with non-routing damage, you need to deal 3 damage across your line units.  Of course, there's variance and sometimes two of your units would have failed their rout checks, but sometimes none would have failed and you dealt 3 damage to your units for nothing.

Plus, this is even more situational because you have to knock your unit just into the yellow.  If an enemy unit rolls really well and takes out the last 2 green boxes on one damage roll, you can't react to it with the non-routing damage.  If your 3-green box line unit is heading to a tango against your opponent's Celestial Guard (or other bruiser), there's probably little way to prevent that rout check from happening.

The other reason I made them not cause rout checks is because of finicky timing issues.  These cards are played during the Movement and Command phase, so the units would be rolling to rout before combat.  Also, there's the annoying interaction with the faction ability, which is specifically designed to not cause rout checks.  You'd probably have to remember what order the damage was applied, which is really annoying.

The use of these cards are probably best on Centaurs and Minotaurs, because you want them to get into the yellow or red really quickly.  Using them on the standard line units is awkward because of their 3 green boxes, and using them on the Ratmen is a tough decision because that drops them down to 7 hit boxes to start with.

Without using the non-routing damage effectively, most of this faction's cards are a bit on the weak side.  Ritual of Blood is really good either way (I think I need to nerf it a bit, to 5 Blood Magic boxes w/o the damage and 7 or 8 boxes with the damage).  Ritual of Wisdom compares poorly to cards like Complex Maneuver.  Ritual of Courage is a bad re-roll card or a really bad I Kill You Meself.  Ritual of Decrepitude's no-damage version only rates 1 damage prevented if the enemy unit is hitting on 4's and 5's, and it's damage version makes your unit take 1 damage to prevent usually less than 2 damage.  Ritual of Pain is pretty nice in that it doesn't use up your red card, but your unit takes the same damage as your opponent's unit.  The faction's command cards and faction ability are really situational, and a good player needs to exploit those situations to get good use out of this faction.

[Zelc]

I'm thinking of replacing the Raptoren with these guys:

Savage Fury Wolves ~176 points
A (4) 5/5, D 2*/1, C 7, M 5", Health 1/1/6
Savage Fury.
Wolf routing (A(+2)+0/+0 and D +3/0 during post-Rout combat phase.  If Savage Fury Wolves Routs, it automatically rallies at the end of turn.)
Courage +3 while Routing.

Elder Savage Fury Wolves <220 points
A (4) 5/5, D 2*/1, C 8, M 6", Health 1/1/6
Savage Fury.
Wolf routing (A(+2)+0/+0 and D +3/0 during post-Rout combat phase.  If Elder Savage Fury Wolves Routs, it automatically rallies at the end of turn.)
Courage +3 while Routing.
At the end of the combat phase, if Elder Savage Fury Wolves is engaged, you may have them rout.

Also means I'll need to come up with a different name for the Wolfen, which are currently the standard line units, since I'll probably make these guys Wolfen.


BTW, I'm probably going to make the standard "swords", "spears", and Minotaurs have a 4/3/3 health bar so this entire faction doesn't get hit too badly by the initial rout check.  The swords and spears should be around 190-230 points, and the Minotaurs are ideally around 290.  The Elders are pegged in the 300's.  They're going to have fewer green boxes (probably 1 or 2; 2 is probably a lot worse than 1...) and better attack stats: Elder "swords" will have (5) 6/5, and I'm still trying to figure out what the other two will have.  Maybe the elder spears can have pikes.  7 dice while in the yellow with a 5/6 attack stat seems really strong, but maybe it should be (plus it has -1 or -2 dice on the charge).  Elder Minotaurs start off (5) 6/6.

Finally, I'm probably going to need to work on the spells some more.  The idea is they'll spend about ~65% of their points on a tanky body and maybe ~35% of their points on support spells.  Ideally, they'd be a waste of points if they sit behind the line, but their support spells are more powerful than what we've seen in other factions.

[Zelc]

Thoughts on different spells for the Loxodon Druids:

Heal
Mark 2 blood magic boxes
-3 dice on next attack hex (costs 1 dmg, only one per druid at a time)

And for the elders:
Mark 4 blood magic boxes
+2 mc for 1-3 units this turn, they cant final rush (2nd and 3rd units cost 1dmg each)
+3 dice on next attack bless (costs 1 dmg, only one per elder at a time)

[Zelc]

I updated the army ability and the command cards.  Once Chad sends me the file we used to "cost" the updated units, I will post those up.

[wariorpoet]

I got a name suggestion. "Alliance of the Savage Wilds"  or "Grrrrrrrrrrr"

[Zelc]

I got a name suggestion. "Alliance of the Savage Wilds"  or "Grrrrrrrrrrr"

I thought about this a bit, and I'm not sure they fit the faction that well.  I certainly appreciate the suggestions!

I'm leaning towards something like Beastmen of the North.  Also there's a chance I could just ditch the Beastmen theme, make them humans, and go for the Viking theme.  The problem with a Viking theme is Vikings were good at archery, while I don't want this faction to have ranged fire.



By the way, I think I've come up with some interesting spells for the Druids.  Note the normal Druids will have about 100 points of spells on top of a ~167 point body, and the Elder Druids will have about 200-250 points of spells on a 250-300 point body.  I'm also pretty sure they will be the only units in this faction without the Savage Fury ability.

Loxodon Druid Spells: (These are ~267 point units with a horrendous attack and decent defense)
Infuse: Cast during your Movement and Command phase, after all Final Rushes are made.  Mark up to three Blood Magic boxes on your units.
Ritual of Speed: Cast during your Movement and Command phase, after all Final Rushes are made.  Deal 1 damage to up to three of your units (this damage does not cause rout checks).  Those units gain +2 MC and cannot Final Rush this turn.
Invest Avatar of Anger: Cast at the beginning of your Movement and Command phase.  Spend two Command Actions, and the caster cannot move this turn.  Choose a unit you control with the Savage Fury ability.  That unit gains the Avatar of Anger effect, and change its Standing Order to an unmodified "Close".  If this would cause you to control more units with the Avatar of Anger effect than Loxodon Druids, remove the Avatar of Anger effect from one or more of your units until this is no longer the case (those units do not make a rout check).


After your units have been deployed but before assigning standing orders, you may choose a unit you control with the Savage Fury ability for each Loxodon Druid you control.  Those units gains the Avatar of Anger effect.


Avatar of Anger:
A unit with the Avatar of Anger effect gains A(+0) +1/+1, D -1/-1, +1 MC, Large, Fearsome, and passes all Courage checks.  It always has the "Close" Standing Order and may not be given a Standing Order Modifier or be directly controlled.  Reduce the unit's Blood Demand by 2 (to a minimum of 1).

Only one unit per Loxodon Druid you control may have the Avatar of Anger effect.  If you control fewer Loxodon Druids than units with Avatar of Anger, you must immediately remove the Avatar of Anger effect from one or more units until this is no longer the case.  Units who lose the Avatar of Anger effect in this way must make a rout check in the next Courage phase (unless this was caused by the Invest Avatar of Anger spell).


Loxodon Elder Druid Spells: (These are 500+ point units with an awful attack and pretty good defense)
Greater Infuse: Cast during your Movement and Command phase, after all Final Rushes are made.  Mark up to four Blood Magic boxes on your units.
Ritual of Speed: Cast during your Movement and Command phase, after all Final Rushes are made.  Deal 1 damage to up to three of your units (this damage does not cause rout checks).  Those units gain +2 MC and cannot Final Rush this turn.
Entangling Vines: Cast during your Movement and Command phase, after all Final Rushes are made.  This spell deals 1 damage to the caster (this damage does not cause rout checks).  An enemy unit of your choice gains -1 MC and A(-2) -0/-0 during its controller's next turn.
Invest Avatar of Wrath: Cast at the beginning of your Movement and Command phase.  Spend two Command Actions, and the caster cannot move this turn.  Choose a unit you control with the Savage Fury ability.  That unit gains the Avatar of Wrath effect, and change its Standing Order to an unmodified "Close".  If this would cause you to control more units with the Avatar of Anger effect than Elder Loxodon Druids, remove the Avatar of Wrath effect from one or more of your units until this is no longer the case (those units do not make a rout check).


After your units have been deployed but before assigning standing orders, you may choose a unit you control with the Savage Fury ability for each Loxodon Elder Druid you control.  Those units gains the Avatar of Wrath effect.


Avatar of Wrath:
A unit with the Avatar of Wrath effect gains A(+2) +1/+1, D -1/-1, +1 MC, Large, Terrifying, and passes all Courage checks.  It always has the "Close" Standing Order and may not be given a Standing Order Modifier or be directly controlled.  Reduce the unit's Blood Demand by 2 (to a minimum of 1).

Only one unit per Loxodon Elder Druid you control may have the Avatar of Wrath effect.  If you control fewer Loxodon Elder Druids than units with Avatar of Wrath, you must immediately remove the Avatar of Wrath effect from one or more units until this is no longer the case.  Units who lose the Avatar of Wrath effect in this way must make a rout check in the next Courage phase (unless this was caused by the Invest Avatar of Wrath spell).




EDITS: Adjusted basically all the spells and Avatars :p.

[Zelc]

Made some major updates to the units.  I'm pretty sure Elder Wolfen Longstriders might be the most fun unit in the game .

[Zelc]

By the way, if anyone has suggestions for how to not totally hose this faction in Ticking Clock, I'd be interested to hear it.  I'm thinking of this:

End of Scenario Scoring:
Any unit with the Savage Fury or Elder Fury ability treats their first yellow health box as a green health box for the purposes of end-game scoring.  Additionally, Wolfen Longstriders and Elder Wolfen Longstriders treat their first two red health boxes as yellow health boxes for the purposes of end-game scoring.

[Zelc]

Whoops, I screwed up the costing for the Rat Swarm, and probably the Elders as well.  I bumped up the Rat Swarm cost up to what I ballpark to be reasonable, but it'll probably need further adjustments (sigh).

[Zelc]

I've been thinking about how to cost the Wolfen Longstriders for a while.  I asked Kevin for some help, and while I think his method overcosts this unit, his thoughts gave me some ideas on a potential way to cost this.

I'm modeling the Wolfen Longstriders as an infinite courage unit with -1 or -2 health boxes to represent damage taken during free attacks.  Against a 5/5, they're taking 1 damage every 6 dice on the free attacks (they always get the charge bonus), so we expect 5/3 damage on free attacks after 2 routs.  I also made sure to give both the enemy unit and the Wolfen Longstrider a permanent +1 to power to represent them always charging each other.  I took an average of the costs to get a baseline cost of 169.  I also took a weighted average with very conservative weights of the -1 health box cost (2/3 weight) and the -2 health box cost (1/3 weight) to get a conservative baseline cost.  The conservative baseline cost turned out to be roughly 171.67 points.

I think I know what Wolf Routing costs, and I think I've got a decent estimate for what 5" MC costs.  I also applied a 7.5% premium for the ability to rout at will, and added a 2% discount for this unit's inability to hold the line.  Finally, I subtracted 30 points from the end cost for the CA's this unit will take to constantly change its standing orders back to Close after it rallies.  The end result was a unit that costs 174 points.

For a conservative estimate, I also tried valuing rout at will at 10%.  Combined with the conservative baseline cost, this gave the unit a cost of 183 points.

I'm pretty confident the true value is somewhere in that range, and probably closer to the 174 points.  For now, I'll leave it at that.

EDIT TO ADD:
Modeling Elder Wolfen Longstriders in the same way, I get a base cost of roughly 227 points.  After applying the percentage premiums and taking off 40 points due to CA's (since these guys probably survive longer than the normal ones), I get a cost of 284 points.  If I apply the conservative premium, it's 291 points.

[Zelc]

I just realized Fear checks will wreck this faction.  I think the Wolfen Longstriders need like +5 Courage vs. Fear checks (total: 11 - 13 courage vs. fear checks based on health).  The Minotaurs should probably be Fearless, and that lets me bump up the Elder Minotaur point cost a bit.  All the other units should probably get +2 Courage vs. Fear Checks.  I'll up the points for the Minotaurs, but I think the other units should be bumped up a point at most.  It should already be factored into their cost for the most part...

[Zelc]

Made some updates.  I think I'm pretty confident on the costs of 8/14 units in this faction.  The other 6 is comprised of the Wolfen, the Centaurs, and the Loxodon Druids.  I fiddled with the Wolfen cost a bit (changed the command action discount for both to 40 points).  I took a ballpark guess at the Centaurs, but it's probably best costed in the formula.  I'm pretty confident the Druids' bodies are costed properly, but I want some feedback on the spells.  The Loxodon Druids should have roughly 100 points worth of spells, and the Elder Loxodon Druids should have roughly 250 points worth of spells.

Ritual spells and Command Cards can't stack anymore, so that should deal with some of the nuts draws I've been thinking about (2x Ritual of Pain, 1x Ritual of Power on charging Centaurs... yum!).  The restriction affects both the benefit and the damage portions, so you can't damage a unit twice in one phase with two different ritual spells.  Ritual of Courage is only minorly affected since it's usually played during a Courage phase.

One potential weakness of the faction, after fiddling around with it in an army builder: the gap between the 116-point "Militia" and the 191-point "Swordsmen" is huuuuuuuuuge.  Wolfen Longstriders sort of fits in at 178, but isn't really ideal for filling a gap in the line.  Combined with the restrictive core units, this faction will probably be taking plenty of Swordsmen and Ratmen to fill out its army.  If push comes to shove and the core requirements are too restrictive, I'll make the Elder Ratmen core, but I don't really want to do that.