What direction should the Amazons take?

[Chad_YMG]

As Hannibal pointed out, choosing a unifying direction is a good community decision.  Please vote on the above options AND say whether you're voting that way because you think it's a great direction or merely the best available option.  Share any other hopes or concerns you have about the Amazon faction so when we choose that central theme we're able to turn it into a first-rate faction.

[RushAss]

I voted Valkyrie/Norse theme.

Greek/Homeric - Isn't a historical Greek army about to be released?  And theoretically you can argue that they would be similarly equipped to the Romans.  Not a very big niche there IMO.

Tribal - The "true" Amazons would probably feel like an all chick version of the Umenzi minus Mumakil the Bringer of Death and Flatness.  Of course you could grow a gigantic piranha, give it legs.....  Nah.  Never mind that.

Norse/Valkyrie - This is the closest we have feel-wise to much of what has been proposed for this faction so far.  Plus it is the furthest away from the chicks in chain mail bikinis thing that we all want to avoid.  It may also be the easiest faction of the 3 to incorporate a monster-type unit.  It's been a couple of years since Battleground has seen a true monster-type unit, yes?

[Niko White]

I voted Arete, but primarily because I wanted 2/3 stat lines rather than a toughness boost army ability.

I'm confused though - I thought we were discussing 2/2 Homerics and 2/3 Norse?  Norse seems at least as good a plate fit as Homeric, though I think either could fit fine.

[RushAss]

I voted Arete, but primarily because I wanted 2/3 stat lines rather than a toughness boost army ability.

I'm confused though - I thought we were discussing 2/2 Homerics and 2/3 Norse?  Norse seems at least as good a plate fit as Homeric, though I think either could fit fine.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  Then again, the Vikings in their heyday didn't wear full plate.  You could really go either way with this.

[Hannibal]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  Then again, the Vikings in their heyday didn't wear full plate.  You could really go either way with this.

Yeah vikings would have less armor, but then again, it's fantasy.  My vote is for the Greek, as I think its the most palatable.  Even though I suggested the idea, I'm not a big 'Norse mythology guy.'

My gut says that the most intuitive depiction for this faction is a 2/2 faction with a lot of skill, which means they'd almost certainly get pushed off to a later release.  I'd honestly prefer doing them that way even if it means they get pushed off but if the idea is to do them now from those choices I'm much more for the Greek w/Arete and heavy armor.  That idea I like, even if not my favorite, but the other two I'm very  on.

[Dave-SWA]

I don't like sounding politically-incorrect, but I just don't associate heavy armor with women.

If the goal is to build a faction with a lot of 2/3 units, I think you're better off starting with a different flavor concept.

There are many ways to skin the 2/3 cat.  I still like the Norse idea.  My concept for them would not be 'norsemen in platemail'.  Instead, it would be "those Norsemen have to be exceptionally hardy stock just to survive up there in their frigid homeland."  A bare-chested Norseman starts with a 1 toughness, so warriors in chainmail have a 3 toughness.  And most of the ones you see out raiding have lots of combat experience, so they have good abilities across the line.

And I'm sure the community could come up with a dozen other reasonable flavor stories to justify a faction with lots of 2/3 defense units.

-DC

[Mexico]

I'm a fan of Norse mythology and think there's plenty of room for a fully Norse fantasy faction. We don't need to shoehorn the Amazons into that role.

I am a big fan of counter-intuitive but internally consistent faction flavor, like Niko's take on Dark Elves. "Chicks" in plate mail as professional soldiers is a very intriguing idea for me. The point isn't that we're making a lady-friendly faction. The point is that these are ladies who can hold their own ina medieval style battlefield.

I think we can hew to the Homeric inspiration while following the natural progression of an Amazonian martial society into more advanced military technology, like plate mail.

Aegis (of Athena) is a pretty good name for this faction's ability, though with /3 defensive profiles it would be too much...

[Kevin]

I personally liked the Homeric Amazons, but with a 2/2 profile.  Give them the mythical Greek monsters (Centaurs, etc.) too, and keep them in that 2000-3000 years ago period.  That way they could integrate beautifully into the historical releases--it would be awesome to see Alexander the Great or Rome fighting it out vs. the Amazons!

Not a 2/3 profile, though--apart from units containing the word "elephant," none of the historical units (In Punic Wars or the Upcoming Alexander vs. Persia) have a hardness above 2.  Though a faction ability to give them extra toughness could work fine.


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My second choice would be to punt them to later.  Better to do a faction that really feels like what is than to, as Jaime says, shoehorn Amazons into a pre-conceived set of abilities.

[BubblePig]

I think it is a good idea to connect the Amazon faction to something that has the archetypal connections of the Greek mythology from a flavor standpoint, even if that means punting them to a later development cycle.

[Niko White]

I personally liked the Homeric Amazons, but with a 2/2 profile.  Give them the mythical Greek monsters (Centaurs, etc.) too, and keep them in that 2000-3000 years ago period.  That way they could integrate beautifully into the historical releases--it would be awesome to see Alexander the Great or Rome fighting it out vs. the Amazons!

Not a 2/3 profile, though--apart from units containing the word "elephant," none of the historical units (In Punic Wars or the Upcoming Alexander vs. Persia) have a hardness above 2.  Though a faction ability to give them extra toughness could work fine.


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My second choice would be to punt them to later.  Better to do a faction that really feels like what is than to, as Jaime says, shoehorn Amazons into a pre-conceived set of abilities.

At the same time, the Spanish plate wearers have 3 toughness, as do others that wear plate in general.  I think having Homeric society + plate tech is not a stretch, and would certainly be T3.

[Kevin]

At the same time, the Spanish plate wearers have 3 toughness, as do others that wear plate in general.  I think having Homeric society + plate tech is not a stretch, and would certainly be T3.

Once upon a time I suggested that heavy Greek Hoplites get a toughness 3, and was rewarded with a beautiful lecture by Zinos about metallurgy and how no way no how should any ancient world armor ever be worth more than a 2. 

It would also be majorly eyebrow raising when as the Greek or Roman player your best, heaviest armored troops all have toughness 2, then your opponents, from supposedly the same time period, are all decked out in high-strength medieval plate mail.

Anyway, i still don't see what the problem is with making them toughness 2, then getting them up to toughness 3 via Aegis.  And of course the super-elite semi-divine ones would come in at toughness 3 because that's their divine armor or whatsuch.

[Hannibal]

Once upon a time I suggested that heavy Greek Hoplites get a toughness 3, and was rewarded with a beautiful lecture by Zinos about metallurgy and how no way no how should any ancient world armor ever be worth more than a 2. 

For what it's worth, that's not why I ended up at Toughness 2 for them.  The goal is to preserve the feel of a unit relative to other units.  So Alexander's cavalry are probably more effective than they should be when pitted against medieval heavy cavalry, but the goal is to make Alexander's cavalry play accurately against Persia (and to a much lesser extent Rome & Carthage) and then play authentically against other armies.  What that means is that Alexander's cavalry should be a breakthrough unit, even if playing against Lizardmen.  This is in contrast to, say, Field of Glory where Alexander's cavalry go from being shock cavalry to moving targets once you go out-of-period.

That being said, the hoplites of Alexander's era fought with a lighter panoply.  Many hoplites, even the famed Spartans, wore a linen cuirass and sometimes none at all!  If the time period was, say, during the Persian invasion of Greece, I could see having the base hoplite be Toughness 3.  I don't know if I would do it, but it would be the very first conversation we would have.

It would also be majorly eyebrow raising when as the Greek or Roman player your best, heaviest armored troops all have toughness 2, then your opponents, from supposedly the same time period, are all decked out in high-strength medieval plate mail.

Well, except remember they aren't from the same time period.  The Fantasy line posits a medieval-equivalent technology level.  That's basically the whole idea behind the Toughness 3 :  the Amazons used to fight with bronze breastplates but have since swapped them out for plate mail.

Anyway, i still don't see what the problem is with making them toughness 2, then getting them up to toughness 3 via Aegis.  And of course the super-elite semi-divine ones would come in at toughness 3 because that's their divine armor or whatsuch.

Ungh.  I hate that idea.  I don't think it captures the feel and the whole "we pure Amazons have the blessing of the Goddess" is almost as cliche as chicks in chainmail.  The Arete path is the way to go, I think.  Be they at Toughness 3 (i.e. developed now) or Toughness 2 (i.e. shelved for later).

[Kevin]

Ungh.  I hate that idea.

If we're going to toss around words like "hate," then let me use the same for taking a fantasy faction that would fit perfectly in the Ancient Meditteranean world setting that's being fleshed out with 4 historical factions (all of which will have been put out before the Amazons, unlike Spaztecs), then pissing away that potential by setting them 1000 years later because of some orc fetish. 

It's like first doing a release of the English Army circa Hundred Years War, then when you put out the French Army its from the Napoleonic era.   "OK, my English Foot Knights have readied their long swords and shields and are prepared to receive the French...grapeshot."       

[Hannibal]

If we're going to toss around words like "hate," then let me use the same for taking a fantasy faction that would fit perfectly in the Ancient Meditteranean world setting that's being fleshed out with 4 historical factions (which all will have been put out before the Amazons, unlike Spaztecs), then pissing away that potential by setting them 1000 years later because of some orc fetish. 

Jeez, sorry.  I just really don't like the idea of the divinity on the Amazons.  It's a neat ability, but I really don't like anything that connotes that tribal/wiccan theme for the Amazons.  Its been done.  To death.  My "intense dislike" for that sort of thing wasn't intended to start a flame war or insult you personally.

As for the Amazons fitting in the "Ancient Meditteranean world setting", I just don't get that.  To my knowledge (and maybe you're more in the know, I do have the majority of a continent between me and Niko/Chad), there's not a "Ancient" setting and a "medieval" setting.  There's Battleground Historical Warfare (which can be any time period) and Battleground Fantasy Warfare (which is a pseudo-medieval setting).  The Amazons simply don't fit in the BGHW, as there isn't a Classical Greek historical faction like that.  There's some speculation that Amazons were based upon ancient Eurasian steppe tribes that may have migrated into northern Greece, but that is not the same idea.

As for the "Orc fetish" (love that line btw), that's a matter of opinion.  If a lot of people simply can't get their heads around Amazons in plate...well, then that's that.  If you as a consumer have this mental frisson over the concept, that's the fundamental right of a consumer in a market economy:  to make up your mind for whatever #@$% reason you like.   

For the record, I would add something not on the voting block and rank them thus:

1) Amazons with Def 2/2 and a skill based ability akin to Arete
2) Amazons with Def 2/3 and Arete
3) Valkyrie theme (either Def 2/2 or 2/3, and whatever army ability works)
4) Tribal Amazons.

At #3, you're starting to lose me as a consumer but if the faction developed okay you might reel me back in.  At #4, I've basically lost interest in the faction.  I would reserve the right to change my mind if the development team came up with some cool ideas, but they'd have to be pretty fricken cool.

(And yeah, I know that means Homeric Valks at Def 2/2 would mean they're delayed)

[Dave-SWA]

I originally voted jungle amazons, but I want to change my vote.

If you're going to do an all-female faction, I think it should be characterized by 'almost all cavalry'.  Women and horses seem to go together well, and it is a concept unlike any other yet produced.

Save the 2/3 defense idea for something else.