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Author Topic: Updated Amazon Faction Suggestion  (Read 1262 times)
Niko White
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« on: March 15, 2011, 02:44:38 pm »

Hey all, gonna put some of my potential ideas for the faction together.  Let me know what you think.  (I don't view this list as any more "all-or-nothing" than any other unit list, obv, but I find it is often easier to collect my thoughts and present where my ideas are if I post a whole faction list.)  Comments in italics.

Patron Deities: A unit's patron deity.  Gonna use the Greek names here, though as Chad says we want to change them up before finalizing the faction.  (My Artemis is also far more a "heroic combat" patron than I understand the historical one to be.)  This would be indicated with an icon in the same place as the Blade Dancer icons, and noted on the back of the card as well.  It interacts with the army ability and with other units in the faction.  I'll note factions with [A] and [D].  I think I'd want to do a mix of both for the basic units, so you could pick based on needs; I'll mark those with [A/D].

Another option for the basic units would be to give them no patron mark and a slight points discount; unclear if this is better or not.

Army ability: Arete.  Spend one command action to mark a unit's Arete box.  Erase the box to increase or decrease one die in an attack roll made by or against this unit by 1.  (This doesn't count as playing a command card.)  If the unit is [A], you may instead erase it to decrease a die in a courage roll by 1 or to rally the unit.  If the unit is [D], you may instead erase it during your Movement and Command phase to give the unit (+1) +0/+0 this turn and change the unit's order to Close.

I couldn't come up with a good way to keep two boxes, because I think the dedicated attack/defense boxes will be frustrating, but wasn't at all sure we wanted to have two boxes both erasable in one combat, and the ability was getting clunky if I tried to shut off that loophole.  With only one box, having it give +1C while marked seems to me to be the bad kind of tension.  I'm hoping the little cookies for your patron might make up for it.  They might also be too good.  Thoughts?

Amazon Sword - 232 - Core - [A/D]
O:(5)5/5  D:2/3  R:-  M:L  C:12
4/3/3

Updated to plate wearers, otherwise unchanged.

Moon Huntresses - 152 - Standard - [A]
O:4/5/5  D:2*/1  R:L  M:SS  C:12
4/2/2
D +1/+0 vs. ranged attacks

Moved to Standard.   I think having this one 2/1 is fine in a toughness faction, and I like the flavor, but I don't want people taking full lines of it.  Making it 2/2 or 1/2 is a possibility, but I worry 1/2 will fold too easily in melee and 2/2 would be too expensive.  In general I think it is important that you'd rather have a 5/6 against this faction than a 6/5, but having a unit like this to keep people honest is probably fine.

Maenads - 116 - Standard - [D]
O: (6) 4/4  D 1/1  R -  M:L  C:-
3/3/5
No Arete, locked on Close.

The "basic" [D] troop to [A]'s Moon Huntresses.  Toned down to (6) due to Chad's suggestion.

Amazon Spears - 279 - Core - [A/D]
O:(6*)5*/5*  D:2/3  R:L  M:L  C:12
4/3/3
Ranged attack uses the Pila rule.

I thought these guys would get super expensive if I left the pila on them, but was pretty pleasantly surprised - this seems affordable to me, given the quality of the unit.

Amazon Archers - 257 - Core [A/D]
O:(5)6*/5*  D:1/2  R:4L  M:L  C:12
3/3/2 
O:(-1)-3/-2 when engaged.

<3 this unit  Kiss

Disciples of Artemis - 185 points - Elite - [A]
O:(3)/6*/5*  D:2/2  R:4L  M:L  C:13
3/2/2
(-0) -3/-2 while engaged
Foresight: 1 for every 3 [A] units in the army (foresight is cumulative)
Spells:
Moon Arrows - Blessing.  R:2L
The next ranged attack made by the blessed unit gets +1 power.  (Can be played on itself.)
Shining Hearts - Blessing.  R:2L
C+1, C+3 vs. Fear.  Lasts until the unit takes a courage check.

I switched the ranged attack blessing to +1 power because otherwise it turns the target unit into Ravenwood Bowmasters, which are frustratingly binary.  I like the power boost more.  We should decide if we want this spell to interact with mercenary ranged attacks - if so, I think +1 power is definitely the way to go, because otherwise it probably breaks the Hill Giant.  Also, I like poetic names, and added what I think is the correct archer melee penalty.

Disciples of Dionysus - 125 points - Elite - [D]
O:(3)/4/4  D:1/2  R:-  M:L  C:13
3/2/2
At the start of the game, draw a Command Card for each 3 [D] units in your army.
Spells:
Reveler's Charge - Blessing.  R:2L
Play at the start of Movement & Command.  Blessed unit's orders change to Close and cannot be changed.  It cannot be direct controlled.  Unit gets O:(+1)+0/+0 and C+2.  Lasts until the end of a turn in which the unit took a rout check.
Spinning Heads - Curse.  R:3L
Put a Curse token on the target unit.  You may remove the token when that unit makes an attack to give the attack (-1) -0/-0, or when you make an engaged attack against the unit to give the attack (+1) +0/+0.

I didn't like the old Spinning Heads because a) it seemed like it either did nothing or was a CA tax and b) it didn't really have that "beat you in a fight" feel.  I'm not sure Spinning Heads is a lot better, honestly, but it has more the feel I want.

Paragons of the Hunt - 361 - Standard - [A]
O:(4)6/5*  D:1*/3  R:3L  M:SS  C:13
3/2/1
Full cavalry charge.

I think this is a neat unit - heavy horse archers!  Armament would be bows and lances; no shields since they plan to shoot as they move in, hence the 1/3 defense.  As Paragons they have 6 skill, but get the move and shoot penalty a la Bowriders.

Choragos - 255 points - Standard - [D]
O:(7)5/5  D:1/3  R:-  M:L  C:-
Hits: 3/3/4
Fearless.  Always on Close.

I don't know what Choragos means; this might need a different name.  My vision of them is that they're dedicated battlefield followers of Dionysus: they're equipped with real weapons and armor and have experience with combat, but are pretty much berserk.  I gave them more hit boxes and distributed them somewhat more like the Maenads, because it seemed like they should be roughly the size of a real unit, but as a bunch of berserk people, probably would lose cohesion relatively rapidly compared to their total health pool.

Band of Heroes - 296 points - Standard - [A/D]
O:(5)6/5  D:2/3  R:-  M:L  C:13
Hits: 4/4/2

Renamed because they're more soldiers than warriors, switched to 2/3 defense.  (My Paragon template, btw, is +1 skill +1 courage.)

Daughters of Dionysus - 402 points - Elite - [D]
O:(7)6/6  D:1/3  R:-  M:L  C:-
Fearless

Daughters of Artemis - 470 points - Elite - [A]
O:(6*)6*/6*  D:2/3  R:-  M:L  C:-
4/4/2
Spears, Pila, Fearless

I like the idea of two "demigoddess" units as "daughters" of their gods, one unit per god, with a fighting style in keeping with that god.  The Daughters of Artemis have the spear/pila combo, and the Daughters of Dionysus have dual wield.  I wanted to make the daughter template O +1/+1 d +1/+0 C - but it was too expensive; I decided to drop the Elite Defense because that keeps power good against the faction and otherwise there's a deficit of strength 6.  (Adding a great weapon unit elsewhere would also solve this second.)

And yes, I know Artemis was a virgin in Greek myth but there's no particular reason to keep that one, and no reason anyone would assume we would after we rename the gods.
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Niko White
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2011, 02:50:39 pm »


Philosophically, this version of the faction is based around heavy infantry and skilled archer support.  They plan to win on the line, but lack great flank options (perhaps too much so?), having only one cavalry unit - a cool but pricey heavy horse archer.  They have good courage, a minor courage boost from their army ability (to [A] units), and some fearless units to keep the enemy honest.  Their toughness is overall high, defense skill less high, though most of their heavy infantry units have the solidly stubborn 2/3 stat.  Their Priestesses give some neat options but continue to focus on the theme of being excellent soldiers who succeed by standing toe to toe with the men, orcs, monsters, and currently plentiful elves of Battleground and sending them packing.

I like the overall direction, but may have gotten a bit carried away with "mirrored" units: there are several cases where there are [A] and [D] versions of units that could perhaps be consolidated to save space; it may be that one more cheap unit would do the faction good as well.  Thoughts?
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Chad_YMG
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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2011, 03:21:48 pm »

Army ability: Arete.  Spend one command action to mark a unit's Arete box.  Erase the box to increase or decrease one die in an attack roll made by or against this unit by 1.  (This doesn't count as playing a command card.)  If the unit is [A], you may instead erase it to decrease a die in a courage roll by 1 or to rally the unit.  If the unit is [D], you may instead erase it during your Movement and Command phase to give the unit (+1) +0/+0 this turn and change the unit's order to Close.

I think this is way too strong.  It might be OK not to have Arete count as using a command card even if it can modify any die roll, but at that point I think it's a very good ability.  Your A ability is slightly worse than the whole army ability for M&M.  The D ability might not be that good since this army can't really play stand-and-shoot, but it's still a pretty nice cookie to give to a full toddler.
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Niko White
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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2011, 03:26:55 pm »


Fair points both - I think I'm having trouble parsing how good mini-Roll is because Roll comes up so rarely that I dunno how often it is to really come up.  I guess the easiest is to just leave it as-is and playtest.  I think the "god affiliation" box is still neat even if it just impacts Priestess bonuses and command cards, though I could certainly see going the other way as well.
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Hannibal
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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2011, 04:59:44 pm »

K, on the whole this works okay.  I'm much less opposed to a baseline 2/3 with the occasional 1/3  (originally, I thought it was going to be a 1/3 army with the occasional 2/3).

Quote
Patron Deities: A unit's patron deity.

Certainly better than linking special effects to priestesses.  I think you could have cards that affect different D/A units.


Quote
Army ability: Arete.

I think you should probably go back to the mini-Roll with the blow/follow through.  Or whatever the effect ends up being (because roll with the blow becomes much more frustrating on a 3/x or x/3 army), have it give the same affect to both unit types.  Arete, the quest for excellence, is the unifying theme in this society.


Quote
Maenads - 116 - Standard - [D]
O: (6) 4/4  D 1/1  R -  M:L  C:-
3/3/5
No Arete, locked on Close.

Choragos - 255 points - Standard - [D]
O:(7)5/5  D:1/3  R:-  M:L  C:-
Hits: 3/3/4
Fearless.  Always on Close.

I don't know what Choragos means; this might need a different name.

I clipped both units to talk about them as a package, since they are essentially both on the Dionysus continuum.

I would make one unit Core, so as to allow a player to field an Oathbreaker army.  I'd have it be the more skilled unit of warriors, as they'd be relatively more common.  The infusion of new blood by ecstatic ceremonies would be a seasonal thing at most.  So I could even see turning the 4/4 into Elite (although Standard is probably better from a game play perspective.)

Names:  in Greek theater, the chorus would often have a role between scenes, while props were being hcanged out.  They did rhythmic dancing, drumming, and chanting and would often set up the next scene.  They'd fulfill the role of narrator.  The Choragos would lead said chorus and often pose questions to which they'd answer in chant.  Something akin to a conga line, but less cheesy.  I picked it because it connoted this band of revelers still in ecstatic trance.

Given that, it may be worth renaming them.  The crappy unit is the choragos, fresh from the ritual and still filled with the frenzy.  While the maenads are the ones who chose to stay in Amazon society, filled with the madness of the Oathbreaker.  (yeah according to myth they fought with their bare hands and were cannibals, but this homeric society is more "inspired" than "modeled" by myth)


Quote
Foresight: 1 for every 3 [A] units in the army (foresight is cumulative)
At the start of the game, draw a Command Card for each 3 [D] units in your army.

Please no.  Please, please, please no.  I've played games where these equations come into play and they're just annoying to work with.  Especially in a game like BGFW because you build a list every scenario, so you may build your army planning to have 3 foresight, but then you find you have like 70 pts left over so you say "oh I'll upgrade unit X to Y" but now that unit no longer counts for the foresight.

I really think the foresight should be moved to centaurs and the command card thing should be dropped.  If you keep them, and I really hope you don't, then just make them X per priestess unit.  That's at least simpler.


Quote
Disciples of Dionysus - 125 points - Elite - [D]
O:(3)/4/4  D:1/2  R:-  M:L  C:13
3/2/2

What about making them be a decent melee unit?  (3)5/6 D: 1/3 of 1/2?  Or you could keep them as the 'occult witches' of the faction, which given the madness effect works as well.


Quote
I didn't like the old Spinning Heads because a) it seemed like it either did nothing or was a CA tax and b) it didn't really have that "beat you in a fight" feel.  I'm not sure Spinning Heads is a lot better, honestly, but it has more the feel I want.

I like the 'on Hold' madness.  Your curse basically makes it an Umenzi uber Hex/Bless but linked to the enemy.  I really think that just making it a (2) 6/6 spell with causing a point = change to a Hold is balanced.  Have it be immune to move & shoot and long range (but not command cards) and you'll get something that should usually work but still is sufficiently random.


Quote
Paragons of the Hunt - 361 - Standard - [A]
O:(4)6/5*  D:1*/3  R:3L  M:SS  C:13
3/2/1
Full cavalry charge.

Cataphracts.  Okay, I can get behind this unit.  Just change the name, because a) I like the name Paragons on the infantry an b) 5" move and Def 3 units ain't stealthy.  If you're in platemail you ain't a "huntress."  I'd go with something in the "Moon" theme.  If the other unit was Moon Huntressess, something like Moon Lancers or some such.  (they have lances right?  Hence the cav charge?)


Quote
Band of Heroes - 296 points - Standard - [A/D]

Paragons works so much better as a name.  With a name like Band of Heroes, I expect them to be jumping out a plane onto Normandy.


Quote
Daughters of Dionysus - 402 points - Elite - [D]
O:(7)6/6  D:1/3  R:-  M:L  C:-
Fearless

Daughters of Artemis - 470 points - Elite - [A]
O:(6*)6*/6*  D:2/3  R:-  M:L  C:-
4/4/2
Spears, Pila, Fearless

Instead of having them be so similar, why not make the  Daughters of Dionysus have doublehanded weapons.  So have them be O: (7) 5/6,  D: 1/3.

Then the Daughters of Artemis be O:(6) 6/5, D:3/3.


Quote
And yes, I know Artemis was a virgin in Greek myth but there's no particular reason to keep that one, and no reason anyone would assume we would after we rename the gods.

Well if the daughters are ascended demi-gods that solves the problems right there.  They are 'daughters' in the metaphorical, adoptive sense.


I still say that there should be centaurs.  I can see making the younger centaurs impulsive and fast & light with just javelins (not centaur javelins).  Then have the older javelins with relatively few attacks but centaur javelins and a dice penalty to enemy units.  I'd give the foresight to these guys.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 05:15:58 pm by Hannibal » Logged

ZiNOS
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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2011, 03:51:16 am »

As i have stated in the wrong place elsewhere.... choragos is a sponsor. How would you like the name to be called in English? Then we can come up with the appropriate Greek name.
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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2011, 08:02:54 pm »

So no Amazon Chariots? High Elves are the only faction( I think!) with chariots.
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Niko White
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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2011, 08:21:38 pm »

So no Amazon Chariots? High Elves are the only faction( I think!) with chariots.

Persia  Grin

But that's a neat idea - sorta fits with a "classical" theme, though not with the updated technology.

In general: I've been swamped at work, and want to do another draft taking feedback in the thread into account, but haven't had a chance yet.  Day off tomorrow though (first since PAX!) so hopefully then.
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