Feedback needed: Ogres + Hydra

[Quelmotz]

Ok....let me be the first to admit I am a big believer in Hydras and Healer mages, but, I think several things would have a fun time squaring off against that list...

1)  I'd think pretty much every army you faced is going to have a large numerical superiority.  That means both of your flanks are going to get pinched.  Unless the Hydra dang near collapses units instantly, it'll be hard to have anything left before too long.
2)  As stated, a shooting army is gonna smoke that Hydra.  (At least, it sure as heck should) 
3)  No matter what, the player squaring off against that is gonna see the writing on the wall.  Unless he also has some superpowered unit faced off against the Hydra, he is going to be saving some serious defensive cards.  (I sure would, anyway)  I would be extremely leery of ever using a defensine card anywhere else, cause I'd always want to use that sucker to fend off the beast, personally.

Ok...Niko mentioned Ravenwood and Umenzi and his High Elf army....I'll toss out an orc army that I've used before and lets imagine what happens...(This isn't saying this is a great Orc build, just the kind of thing I would typically throw down)

1x Goblin Raiders
1x Goblin Spears
1x Warg Riders
2x Orc Swords
2x Orc Spears
1x Orc Axemen
1x Healer Mage

Now, I realize Goblin Raiders and Spears suck, so I am going to want them to face off against some sorry units on your side if possible.  However, when you tell me you got 6 units, I am going to be placing first.  I'd probably toss an Orc Sword in the middle, to see how the wind blows.  My next unit placement will probably be the healers right behind them.  Now...depending where you start putting stuff, I'm going to be squaring off my orcs against your line, and I'm sure I'll save the Wargs at the least for after you are done placing units.  Now, it is going to be impossible for you to put that Hydra down in this scenario without me being able to put down a quality unit across from it.  (Orc Spears or Orc Swords, won't make much difference in my mind, but if I got to choose, I'd put a spear there)  However, it should be noted....dang near EVERY army should be able to match up a decent unit against the Hydra, as they'll almost certainly have the numercial edge.

Ok...So I don't know what your typical lineup looks like, but we will almost certainly have the 4 Ogres and the Hydra squaring off against my 5 Orcish units.  We will both have a healer mage backing our units, but it should be noted, my healer will be twice as effective, at the very least.  (And that edge is what makes me extremely leery to fielding big dogs with my healers)  Also, I am probably going to goblins on one flank ready to pinch, and my Warg Riders on my other flank ready to completely make a mockery of their 185 point cost.

In essence, in my mind, I am going to have to make some disastrous courage checks for this game to be even close.  (Which I'll admit can happen)  I freaking hate fielding goblins, but in this game, they are going to seem awesome, and the Wargs are going to go bananas.  The Ogres and Orcs are going to duke it out, but as stated, my healer will be much more effective.  The outside Ogres are going to have a hard time lasting past my move when I pinch, actually...they are going to get brutalized.

So..in a nutshell...I guess I don't get how you are winning very often.

What a stench! Orcs, goblins, hydras and ogres! The only "people" that aren't so bad smelling are the healer mages.

Oh, looks like they scrolled off the forum!  Boo.

I'll repost them in a bit, I still have the data.

When? 

Right now, I was going to bed when I posted that reply

I'll edit in the link in a bit.

EDIT: Ok, thread is up!  http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,912.0.html  Took ages, because I was revising as I went, heh.  Ran out of time for the cards and faction ability though, I'll have to revisit those later.

Yeah, I read it! See the comments there.

[boltana]

So..in a nutshell...I guess I don't get how you are winning very often.

The last one is just as important as the first 3, I think.  I mean, just because I'm on close doesn't mean that I blindly rushed across the table.  Every game we played used a scenario and had terrain on the table.  I used the terrain to shield my guys as much as possible.  I also used terrain to achieve as much local superiority as possible (i.e. using the terrain so that I could get a turn where I'd be 1-on-1 with an enemy instead of final rushing into a pinch.  Also, I used close w/objective and judicious selection of activation to ensure things went to plan.  For example, move the ogres first to block LOS for the Hydra so it didn't go off chasing a 'distraction unit.'

I think you might be miss playing the LOS with the Hydra.  On Page 44 of the 2.4 rules it states "Non-colossal units do not block line-of-sight to and from this unit.".  So the Ogres should not be blocking the LOS of the Hydra to its nearest enemy unit. 

[RushAss]

I think you might be miss playing the LOS with the Hydra.  On Page 44 of the 2.4 rules it states "Non-colossal units do not block line-of-sight to and from this unit.".  So the Ogres should not be blocking the LOS of the Hydra to its nearest enemy unit. 

I think he's talking about using the Ogres to steer the Hydra.  Sort of like using Swarmlings to Steer a T-Rex.

[Hannibal]

Yep, that's what I was talking about.  Using the Ogres to flank the Hydra so that the "closest" unit that it can see is the one I want it to go after.

[Quelmotz]

There's a topic currently in the rules section about this. Strange, it was just posted today. Great minds think alike, I suppose. 

http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,913.0.html

[lazyj]

I admit that it was this discussion that caused me to post in the rules forum, because I like playing with big things and I wanted to understand how they worked.

This way Gull2112 will experience the full pain of giant mouths full of teeth! 

[RushAss]

... because I like playing with big things and I wanted to understand how they worked....

There's counciling for that sort of thing you know.

[lazyj]

There's counciling for that sort of thing you know.

...Except I obviously don't pay attention to these kinds of things in a classroom setting. Thus me asking the more experienced among us for a more "hands on" explanation. 

And notice I wasn't asking you!    jk

This forum cracks me up. 

[Niko White]

...Except I obviously don't pay attention to these kinds of things in a classroom setting. Thus me asking the more experienced among us for a more "hands on" explanation. 

And notice I wasn't asking you!    jk

This forum cracks me up. 

People ask me for this sorta thing all the time, you'd not believe... 

Rush and I are both infamous for our ability to handle colossal units, after all!

[RushAss]

Rush and I are both infamous for our ability to handle colossal units, after all!

I don't know about myself.  There's a reason why the Dwarves are my favorite faction - LOL

But back to topic, I think a combination of speedy cavalry and Spears can cause that army trouble.  I'm not talking about an army constructed with the sole purpose of killing the Hydra Kingdom army (BTW - I like the name!), but a generic build.  IIRC, my generic Tourney Dwarven build was

1 x Longbeeards
3 x Battle Axemen
1 x Spearmen
1 x Militia
1 x Miners (just because it was fun)
1 x Antonians

There could be 3 things the Antonians could do that would be brutal.

1 - Back up the Line Unit facing the Hydra (probably the Spears) and pinch the thing
2 - Flank the other side of the line and start rolling from there
3 - Whip around the line and flatten the Healer

I'd probably go with option 1.  As long as I can get a courage boosting card for the Spearmen, they will hang in there for a turn or two and cause some serious pain.  With a Rune they are (7) 6/7 on the Hydra's charge turn.  Ouch!

Option 2 can be brutal, but you could probably get a pinch with someone else since the Dwarves still have a 7 unit line vs a 5 unit line

Option 3 can be mean as any remaining auras on the Kingdom units will be rendered useless once the Healers are engaged.  I don't see them lasting beyond 2 turns. After that, the Antonians can wreak havoc from behind the line.

This is just a typical Dwarven build.  Anybody with fast cavalry could so something similar.  Orcs, both Elven factions, Men of Hawkshold and Undead.  I'm not saying that it's death for the Hydra Kingdom, but speedy cavalry will certainly cause issues for this build IMO and plenty of players take them along with a Spearmen unit or two.

[Hannibal]

One thing I've noticed that happens a lot is that, if I use the terrain judiciously, I can protect a Hydra's flank with it.  One example I had was the hydra had a deep lake on the right and an ogre unit on the left.  Across from them were three units lined up so the ogres got pinched.  But the ogres (through use of the spoils) held out long enough for the hydra to kill what it was facing, then turn and slam into the unit engaged against the front of the ogres.

But just to reiterate:  I feel the Hydra Kingdoms army will get smoked against any pros.  I think more than anything it was my experience vs the relative inexperience of my opponents.

Maybe next year I'll take the Mercenaries to the campaign-a-ment.  Could be fun, especially to allow some other faction to be the Mercs.

[Quelmotz]

Rush and I are both infamous for our ability to handle colossal units, after all!

I don't know about myself.  There's a reason why the Dwarves are my favorite faction - LOL

But back to topic, I think a combination of speedy cavalry and Spears can cause that army trouble.  I'm not talking about an army constructed with the sole purpose of killing the Hydra Kingdom army (BTW - I like the name!), but a generic build.  IIRC, my generic Tourney Dwarven build was

1 x Longbeeards
3 x Battle Axemen
1 x Spearmen
1 x Militia
1 x Miners (just because it was fun)
1 x Antonians

There could be 3 things the Antonians could do that would be brutal.

1 - Back up the Line Unit facing the Hydra (probably the Spears) and pinch the thing
2 - Flank the other side of the line and start rolling from there
3 - Whip around the line and flatten the Healer

I'd probably go with option 1.  As long as I can get a courage boosting card for the Spearmen, they will hang in there for a turn or two and cause some serious pain.  With a Rune they are (7) 6/7 on the Hydra's charge turn.  Ouch!

Option 2 can be brutal, but you could probably get a pinch with someone else since the Dwarves still have a 7 unit line vs a 5 unit line

Option 3 can be mean as any remaining auras on the Kingdom units will be rendered useless once the Healers are engaged.  I don't see them lasting beyond 2 turns. After that, the Antonians can wreak havoc from behind the line.

This is just a typical Dwarven build.  Anybody with fast cavalry could so something similar.  Orcs, both Elven factions, Men of Hawkshold and Undead.  I'm not saying that it's death for the Hydra Kingdom, but speedy cavalry will certainly cause issues for this build IMO and plenty of players take them along with a Spearmen unit or two.

*coughumenzigiantwarelephantmumakilthebringerofdeathandflatnesscough* LOL

[RushAss]

I don't think Nikko was referring to BG units at all

[Niko White]

I don't think Nikko was referring to BG units at all

How dare you suggest such a thing?

I'm shocked, shocked!