Feedback needed: Ogres + Hydra

[Hannibal]

So once upon a time, I created a wacky list out of the Monsters & Mercenaries deck.  It was my 'Ogre Kingdoms' list and I always felt it was a silly, fun list that'd get wolloped.  The list is:  4 Ogres, Hydra, Healer Mages. 

No ranged fire, a lot of point-intensive units that can be flanked.  I figured it was a weak list.  Then the weirdest thing happened.  I started winning with it.  A lot.  I'm chalking it up to the local folks not having a ton of experience with the game.  But the upside to it is that the Ogres keep up with the rampaging Hydra, and since everything moves at 5", they're on the other guys by turn 3 (turn 4 at the latest).  Then the Healer Mage, even with needing to first aura cleanse guys, keeps the Ogres & Hydra in the fight.

Still, I think there's got to be a trick to beating this army.  No army is unbeatable.  Is it really just a swarm army that gets the pinch's in?  Or am I missing something obvious?

For some battle reports on it:

http://itinerantgeekdom.blogspot.com/2009/05/kublacon-report-day-2-pt-2.html
http://itinerantgeekdom.blogspot.com/2009/05/kublacon-report-day-3-pt-2.html
http://itinerantgeekdom.blogspot.com/2009/05/kublacon-report-day-five.html

Just search for "Hydra" as these games are buried in and around other events.  It's worth mentioning that the game against the undead players can basically be ignored.  He went with an all-skeleton army.   

[Niko White]

That's definitely a strong list, but I think any number of decent armies can deal.  My standard HE tourney list (4x Battle Squad, 1x Knights, 1x Bowrider, 1x Archers, 1x Elder-Blade Swords) should be pretty easily able to cope with that kind of list because I outnumber you so much, and I have a couple of options to break through to the Hydra before it gets out of hand.  Umenzi have a similar case, with less of the shooting and more just having so many guys.  Ravenwood also has options.

The list also honestly lives or dies by the Hydra IMO.  Ogres are great, but four Ogres + Healer Mage isn't getting it done.  So you might also have some issues with heavy ranged fire; like Trolls, I find the Hydra can have issues with concentrated fire, though obviously shooting it is risky.

[Quelmotz]

Eat my War Elephant, you smelly hydra!

Anyway, I'm quite sure my faithful old war elephant (nicknamed mumakil the bringer of death and flatness by Rush) can EASILY cope with the hydra's big attack stats, smashing out a few damage in the process (especially on the charge turn - (4) 5/9 and 2 impact hits isn't anything to laugh about). My 4 javs will keep those even more smelly and fat ogres busy for a while, with FA and healing, while my berserkers madly rush around the corners and start beating some ogres up with a pinch. 4 shamans at the back healing and hexing (your (+1) +0/+0 isn't so scary now, huh?). The atlatlmen at the back of the berserkers can add in some ranged fire to force a key rout check if possible.

There. A build that I'm quite confident of beating your hydra build with.

GWE-Jav-Jav-Jav-Jav-Ber
GWE-Sh-Sh-Sh-Sha-Atl

The GWE can be moved according to where you deploy your hydra.

[RushAss]

Mumakil will need command cards to face down a Hydra head-to-head  unassisted.  Hexing the Hydra is certainly helpful and the damage the GWE inflicts on it's charge turn is great, but the Hydra will quickly catch up once the 2/4 defense is gone and the impact hits are used.  And while they look nice on paper, the javelin dudes will merely be keeping up with the regeneration.  Keep any Devotion of Courage cards you draw for the Elephant because you do NOT want it to route!

And against Ogres you may want Spearmen instead of the Javenlineers.  Cheaper and just as effective IMO.  So you give yourself 56 extra points to play with.  High Priest upgrades, perhaps?

[Quelmotz]

Mumakil will need command cards to face down a Hydra head-to-head  unassisted.  Hexing the Hydra is certainly helpful and the damage the GWE inflicts on it's charge turn is great, but the Hydra will quickly catch up once the 2/4 defense is gone and the impact hits are used.  And while they look nice on paper, the javelin dudes will merely be keeping up with the regeneration.  Keep any Devotion of Courage cards you draw for the Elephant because you do NOT want it to route!

And against Ogres you may want Spearmen instead of the Javenlineers.  Cheaper and just as effective IMO.  So you give yourself 56 extra points to play with.  High Priest upgrades, perhaps?

Crap, forgot that ogres are large. Muahahahaha!

Yeah, I agree, Mumakil's courage sucks. In one of my games, it routed to a silly Elder-Blade Swordsmen before even forcing it into the yellow. The EBS only got help from some bowriders moving around at long range...ok so the Elephant is colossal... And the amazing thing is the Elephant managed to hit only 2 damage on the charge  and 1 damage afterward before routing 

[RushAss]

You think that's bad?  I had a GWE rout to a unit of Brownies.  BROWNIES!!!!  OK, so Mumakil had brought death and flatness to a unit previously to get to the Brownies and the Brownies did have support from Ravenwood Archers.  But that didn't make it any less humiliating!

The Hydra Kingdom Army is certainly fearsome (har har), but just hope that your opponent isn't wild about Spearmen.  While Ogres will trounce most Spearmen, those Spearmen will put a sure hurting on the Ogres before they die.  The requirement of 2 command actions to change their standing orders or direct control them doesn't help them either.  If it's high end Spearmen like Tyrants, High Elves, or *maybe* even Dwarves, they could be matched up against the Hydra to cause it much pain before the pinch arrives. 

[Quelmotz]

You think that's bad?  I had a GWE rout to a unit of Brownies.  BROWNIES!!!!  OK, so Mumakil had brought death and flatness to a unit previously to get to the Brownies and the Brownies did have support from Ravenwood Archers.  But that didn't make it any less humiliating!

The Hydra Kingdom Army is certainly fearsome (har har), but just hope that your opponent isn't wild about Spearmen.  While Ogres will trounce most Spearmen, those Spearmen will put a sure hurting on the Ogres before they die.  The requirement of 2 command actions to change their standing orders or direct control them doesn't help them either.  If it's high end Spearmen like Tyrants, High Elves, or *maybe* even Dwarves, they could be matched up against the Hydra to cause it much pain before the pinch arrives. 

Agreed. We need better spearmen!!! Pitchforkmen, halberdiers, etc.

[Niko White]

Agreed. We need better spearmen!!! Pitchforkmen, halberdiers, etc.

Cliffport has an awesome polearm unit.  But no one takes the Venetian Halflings seriously 

[Quelmotz]

Agreed. We need better spearmen!!! Pitchforkmen, halberdiers, etc.

Cliffport has an awesome polearm unit.  But no one takes the Venetian Halflings seriously 

 

Can you give me some link or ?

Polearms!! Woot!  I was hoping for more "pike-style" units.

[Niko White]

Agreed. We need better spearmen!!! Pitchforkmen, halberdiers, etc.

Cliffport has an awesome polearm unit.  But no one takes the Venetian Halflings seriously 

 

Can you give me some link or ?

Polearms!! Woot!  I was hoping for more "pike-style" units.

Oh, looks like they scrolled off the forum!  Boo.

I'll repost them in a bit, I still have the data.

[Quelmotz]

Agreed. We need better spearmen!!! Pitchforkmen, halberdiers, etc.

Cliffport has an awesome polearm unit.  But no one takes the Venetian Halflings seriously 

 

Can you give me some link or ?

Polearms!! Woot!  I was hoping for more "pike-style" units.

Oh, looks like they scrolled off the forum!  Boo.

I'll repost them in a bit, I still have the data.

When? 

[RushAss]

Agreed. We need better spearmen!!! Pitchforkmen, halberdiers, etc.

Cliffport has an awesome polearm unit.  But no one takes the Venetian Halflings seriously 

I've played them

[GoIndy]

Ok....let me be the first to admit I am a big believer in Hydras and Healer mages, but, I think several things would have a fun time squaring off against that list...

1)  I'd think pretty much every army you faced is going to have a large numerical superiority.  That means both of your flanks are going to get pinched.  Unless the Hydra dang near collapses units instantly, it'll be hard to have anything left before too long.
2)  As stated, a shooting army is gonna smoke that Hydra.  (At least, it sure as heck should) 
3)  No matter what, the player squaring off against that is gonna see the writing on the wall.  Unless he also has some superpowered unit faced off against the Hydra, he is going to be saving some serious defensive cards.  (I sure would, anyway)  I would be extremely leery of ever using a defensine card anywhere else, cause I'd always want to use that sucker to fend off the beast, personally.

Ok...Niko mentioned Ravenwood and Umenzi and his High Elf army....I'll toss out an orc army that I've used before and lets imagine what happens...(This isn't saying this is a great Orc build, just the kind of thing I would typically throw down)

1x Goblin Raiders
1x Goblin Spears
1x Warg Riders
2x Orc Swords
2x Orc Spears
1x Orc Axemen
1x Healer Mage

Now, I realize Goblin Raiders and Spears suck, so I am going to want them to face off against some sorry units on your side if possible.  However, when you tell me you got 6 units, I am going to be placing first.  I'd probably toss an Orc Sword in the middle, to see how the wind blows.  My next unit placement will probably be the healers right behind them.  Now...depending where you start putting stuff, I'm going to be squaring off my orcs against your line, and I'm sure I'll save the Wargs at the least for after you are done placing units.  Now, it is going to be impossible for you to put that Hydra down in this scenario without me being able to put down a quality unit across from it.  (Orc Spears or Orc Swords, won't make much difference in my mind, but if I got to choose, I'd put a spear there)  However, it should be noted....dang near EVERY army should be able to match up a decent unit against the Hydra, as they'll almost certainly have the numercial edge.

Ok...So I don't know what your typical lineup looks like, but we will almost certainly have the 4 Ogres and the Hydra squaring off against my 5 Orcish units.  We will both have a healer mage backing our units, but it should be noted, my healer will be twice as effective, at the very least.  (And that edge is what makes me extremely leery to fielding big dogs with my healers)  Also, I am probably going to goblins on one flank ready to pinch, and my Warg Riders on my other flank ready to completely make a mockery of their 185 point cost.

In essence, in my mind, I am going to have to make some disastrous courage checks for this game to be even close.  (Which I'll admit can happen)  I freaking hate fielding goblins, but in this game, they are going to seem awesome, and the Wargs are going to go bananas.  The Ogres and Orcs are going to duke it out, but as stated, my healer will be much more effective.  The outside Ogres are going to have a hard time lasting past my move when I pinch, actually...they are going to get brutalized.

So..in a nutshell...I guess I don't get how you are winning very often.

[Niko White]

Oh, looks like they scrolled off the forum!  Boo.

I'll repost them in a bit, I still have the data.

When? 

Right now, I was going to bed when I posted that reply

I'll edit in the link in a bit.

EDIT: Ok, thread is up!  http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,912.0.html  Took ages, because I was revising as I went, heh.  Ran out of time for the cards and faction ability though, I'll have to revisit those later.

[Hannibal]

So..in a nutshell...I guess I don't get how you are winning very often.

Well the gist of this thread is that I don't know how I'm winning either...   

Okay, so I think it comes down to a couple of things:

1)  Most my opponents weren't experienced players.

2)  Most of my opponents hadn't seen the list before.

3)  People didn't have advance notice of what was in the army, so they couldn't build an army tailored to defeating mine.

4)  I used the terrain as best I could.

The last one is just as important as the first 3, I think.  I mean, just because I'm on close doesn't mean that I blindly rushed across the table.  Every game we played used a scenario and had terrain on the table.  I used the terrain to shield my guys as much as possible.  I also used terrain to achieve as much local superiority as possible (i.e. using the terrain so that I could get a turn where I'd be 1-on-1 with an enemy instead of final rushing into a pinch.  Also, I used close w/objective and judicious selection of activation to ensure things went to plan.  For example, move the ogres first to block LOS for the Hydra so it didn't go off chasing a 'distraction unit.'

In short, I think I'm winning because of the people I played, I was the more experienced one and that people didn't know what army I was bringing so could tailor theirs.  I really think if I'd gone up against Ajax or pretty much anyone on this forum then there'd be hydra-steaks for dinner...