New Faction: Samurai period Army

[gull2112]

as the "hand of the assassin" takes the card.

Ah yes, a marriage of form and function.

[ajax98]

So, let's see, how do I retain the flavour of the ability, while toning it down somewhat?

Ninja Spies:  Once per turn, you may spend 2 CA to look at an opponent's hand.  [So, in a multiplayer game, it needs a fair bit of effort to see everything.]

Ninja Assassins:  Once per turn, you may spend 1 CA to force an opponent to randomly discard a card from their hand. [That should handle the issue with lots of CA near the end of a game.

To me, this is more acceptable. Playtesting would proof it out.

[lazyj]

Wow that's a lot of units. You asked for a top "ten" list:

There's a lot of duplication here. I'd pull the key aspects out of each group, the really interesting parts.

Here's what I like the most:

Core
Ashigaru Spearmen
Peasant Conscripts
Sohei
Arquebusiers

Standard
Ronin
Samurai
Samurai Cavalry

Elite
Bound Oni
Mikoshi
Enraged Goryo

If you want to add more units, I'd do some variations on those. What I like about this is that you can have as many Samurai as you want... provided you fill out those core requirements with the Peasants. And then the freaky weird stuff has the elite requirement.

Anyway, my two cents.

For selfish reasons I'd love to see a different army ability - mostly because I've got a faction in development that uses some similar things. But I also wonder if there's not something better to simulate the awesome ninja-ness.

Totally off the cuff here: what if it was something completely different than anyone else's faction ability? Something that hit once like from out of nowhere, that made people fear the ninja?

Before assigning standing orders, write the name of an enemy unit on the ninja card and place face down. Once per game, during the enemy Movement and Command phase, reveal the card. The unit listed loses one damage box, has its standing order changed to hold and may not be moved this turn.

What do you think?

[ajax98]

Totally off the cuff here: what if it was something completely different than anyone else's faction ability? Something that hit once like from out of nowhere, that made people fear the ninja?

Before assigning standing orders, write the name of an enemy unit on the ninja card and place face down. Once per game, during the enemy Movement and Command phase, reveal the card. The unit listed loses one damage box, has its standing order changed to hold and may not be moved this turn.

"...may not be moved this turn." -unless required to Rout due to the one damage.

That's a pretty significant impact on your opponent. Most Faction abilities are 'free'/cost the player a CA, due to the qualification that the Faction Special Ability is used on the friendly player's units.

Proposing something that has a direct effect on the opponent seems to me to require some Expenditure from my forces, as in a phantom Ninja unit making the hit should cost on my initial roster.

[lazyj]

Well that could easily be accommodated. Army ability allows you to purchase ninjas at X points per use to a maximum of 3 units. Reveal max of one per turn.

The faction cookie could be something like the samurai units don't get penalties for fighting to flank or rear or something. Minor but still different.

[lazyj]

So... Nothing then? Man I'm all itching to get Karasu's feedback on this. It seems like it's more ninja-like and yet totally different from other abilities.

And is there anyway to move this topic to the New Faction Discussion section?

[Karasu]

I've been considering     

I seem to remember that my first attempt at a faction (Chi'in) had a rocket battery that caused rout checks.  It got some feedback on the ability to break someone's line just before contact being horrendously powerful.  I would say that being able to force the enemy to stop one unit would be similarly OTT.

That said, here's how I would start trying to tweak it.

Ninja Assassins
Spend a CA during the Movement and Command phase to make a (1)7/5 attack on an enemy unit.  If that unit takes any damage, it does not take any rout checks but has its standing order changed to Hold.

That removes the ability to just damage insanely tough units, but retains the general idea, I think.

I do prefer my own suggestions, obviously  .  I'd probably shy away from the fighting to the flank and that thing for Samurai: that's a unit ability, not a faction ability.  i have done something similar to it for the ant-kinden faction as well.


As for the top 10 of units, I'd be tempted to switch the Ronin and Arquebusiers around, making Ronin core, which would allow a totally Samurai army [inaccurate but I imagine popular with players...] and also reduce the possibility of an only Arquebus army.  The funniest thing about the Mikoshi is that it's a historical[ish] unit as opposed to the fantastic options of the Oni and Goryo.  Do you have any thoughts on the mechanics used for the Oni and Goryo, they're a bit out on a limb.

[lazyj]

Yay for discussion!    Boo for the fact that you still like your card manipulation.    I had hoped to sway your opinion because it makes a faction of mine seem derivative. But assuming that there is merit in changing the ninja:

I agree that you don't want the ninja ability to be too over the top, but what I like about my suggestion is that it feels more like you have ninjas at your command. Messing with Cards is nice and all, but my American-ized view of the ninja is that he's got swords and stealth and strikes out of no-where, causing panic! That's what I want them to feel like when I use them.

My attempt at not going over the top was that you don't get to use the ninja attack at any time or on anyone. You have to plan your attack many turns in advance. Plan well and it very well could be devastating. Plan poorly and it's a minor annoyance. It could have any number of one-off effects, from canceling the move orders to damage to courage checks, or some combination. I'm really not all that tied to exactly what the effect is. I liked Ajax's thought that you could buy more than one ninja strike, but maybe at escalating cost.

What I like about your alternative is that it simulates the leader getting picked off from a ninja attack. I guess when you start making combat rolls I don't think about army abilities, I think of units. Not that there's a problem with that - maybe you just get to buy units of ninjas.

I'm not completely convinced that you couldn't balance a ninja strike option in the Opponent M&C phase. Maybe something like "once per your opponent's M&C phase, reveal and discard a ninja strike card to make a (1)7/6 attack on an unengaged enemy of your choice (your opponent may play command cards if they wish, but you may not). If that unit takes damage it must pass a courage check at C -2 or change it's standing order to hold and may not be changed this turn."

First of all, Attack Power 6 - come on man, they're ninjas!    I also think that you should give the enemy unit an out, first by allowing them to use defensive command cards and secondly to give them a chance at a courage check. The theory being that my Hawk Courage 16 Knights are highly motivated to continue their charge into the puny weaklings before them, even if their captain is killed. My scaredy cat Peasants, however, would get highly nervous if their leader got suddenly skewered by a ninja attack. Adding Ninja Strike as a card allows a couple of things - primarily the ability to play it in the opponent turn without tracking weird things inconsistent with BG in general. It also allows for some nifty ninja art! You could get one for free as the faction ability, and each additional one costs X points more.

The samurai cookie was just a quick thought if you wanted a more traditional, weaker ability for the army outside of the highly unusual ninja. And the top 10: I'm certainly open for whatever there, I just wanted to give you a response from an outside perspective. Ronin for Arquebusiers sounds perfectly reasonable.

I'd have to actually play with the Oni / Goryo. They do seem a bit out there, but the idea is cool. I admit I mostly got fixated on changing you off of card manipulation so I wasn't thinking about the rest as much.    I like the thought that they don't count for victory conditions - but I'd have to see how that works out for both sides.

[Hannibal]

Ninja Assassins
Spend a CA during the Movement and Command phase to make a (1)7/5 attack on an enemy unit.  If that unit takes any damage, it does not take any rout checks but has its standing order changed to Hold.

What about just buying damage pre-game?  Seems to me that Ninjas would have a pre-game effect instead of running around on the battlefield.  That way you could represent it by assassinations but also things like the ninjas poisoning the water, etc.

Say maybe a person could spend X pts to mark off a Green box or Y pts to mark off a Red box.  An enemy unit may only have 1 box marked off by Ninjas. 

Obviously X>Y in terms of cost.  If you make it expensive, then people would be more likely to use it on expensive units, which would be fitting as Ninjas would probably kill Knights not peasants.  But letting people buy either Green or Red boxes would provide nice flexibility when you have only a few points to spend.

[lazyj]

Sure they'd probably do all the stealthy spy stuff in "real" life, but that doesn't scratch my itch to be able to play this faction and say "Ha! Ninja Attack!"

I mean I'm all for making believable and realistic situations, but when it comes down to it I really just want to have fun with my faction. If I'm buying feudal Japanese fantasy combat units, I want to see some ninjas! Not just have them cause some abstract effect, but to actually see them in action somehow.

That's really what it's coming down to. I am less than enthusiastic about simulating the effect of ninjas than I am about seeing ninjas. Think of them like Carthaginian elephants. They really didn't do very much for Carthage in Italy combatwise, and you could make a case that they weren't all that necessary to include as their real impact was in helping convince the Gallic Tribes to join Hannibal. But doggone it does it make that faction that much cooler to actually have them there.

Now I agree that having a unit of ninjas is silly, and doesn't fit either "real" history or my Westernized, popularized image of ninjas. But they should be tangible on the battlefield.

[Hannibal]

Sure they'd probably do all the stealthy spy stuff in "real" life, but that doesn't scratch my itch to be able to play this faction and say "Ha! Ninja Attack!"

Yeah that's totally fair.  And a valid point.  What about just making it a card then?  That way it can be really powerful, but relatively seldom.  Just thinking off the top of my head.

[ajax98]

Ah, the twists and turns.

I see a process being built for design concepts. For Army Special abilities or any function of the meta game.

Pre-battle Modifications / Manipulations:
A list of items that are to be considered acceptable. Such as enemy unit damage and the associated costs.
A list of items that should not be considered, because they are really 'broken', unless there is a way or combination to make them usable. Proof of concept.

Start of Battle Modifications / Manipulations:
Items such as Foresight and Intelligence, etc.
Possibly pay points to create random problems at set up or force enemy units to start with Hold orders.
Modify Victory conditions

During Battle Modifications / Manipulations:
Enemy Command card manipulations
Change of Battle situation; Pay X before battle, get Z during battle, possibly at a designated turn or other condition.

End of Battle Modifications / Manipulations:

[Rostov73]

Has the Samurai idea been revisited?  Seems a great army to play.  It would instantly be my favorite deck.

Ninjas on the battle field?  I dont ever recall seeing ninjas on the battle field.  Of course, that could just mean they were really good ninjas.

[gull2112]

Ninjas on the battle field?  I dont ever recall seeing ninjas on the battle field.  Of course, that could just mean they were really good ninjas.

[Rostov73]

Perhaps having the original deck be historically accurate (Historical Warfare), but the expansion deck could have ninjas, japanese dragons and other mythical heros (Fantasy Warfare).  The best of both worlds.  

Even though ninjas were/are obviously real, they werent really involved on the battle field.  The historical aspect of japan is great, but the extras would make it so much more fun to play.