Which units do you think are overpriced?

[Quelmotz]

Marauders are not at all overcosted, those guys rule.

Also, still pretty sure Scorpions are fine.  I don't play Dwarves enough to know about the ballista, but I could see that one needing help due to the tendency of the Dwarves to move around in big blocks.

Which is why the new ranged rules affect it so much.

[RushAss]

Colossal units usually only have strong staying power (elephant) or incredible damage for an overpriced cost. The elephant is an excellent magnet for arrows/other ranged attacks that almost never hit it, and even strong melee units get almost flattened out by the Elephant's charge. Still, due to bad luck, my GWE only did 2(!!!!) damage on a Elder Blade Swordsmen when it charged it. IMO, the GWE will probably die easily to a Celestial Guard one on one, but it also has the power of attracting ranged fire that doesn't do much damage. Even though it'll probably die to a CG, I'm quite sure it'll hold it there for quite a lot of turns, while doing quite a few points of damage on the charge.

I'm not to sure about that.  Assuming no command cards are played on either side, the Elephant will automatically do 2 damage on it's charge turn and an average of 3.  After that it's still guaranteed to do at least 1 damage due to being Colossal, so the Guard is down to 4 dice by the end of the second combat turn.  As for the CG, they'll do about 2-3 damage on the charge turn.  After that, they'll do 1-2.  Once he's down to yellow, it becomes roughly 1 point per turn.  So it will be about 4 attack turns before the Elephant is down to the yellow and has to roll a courage check.  By this point, the CG is probably in the red.  So I think it's pretty much even between these 2 and that's fine as they are really close in points.

I don't know about the T-Rex, but it should be a real heavy hitter based on the stats. BTW Rush, do you remember that session report where the T-Rex routed to a bunch of crazed goblins?

Oh yeah, that was hilarious.  But the reason for the hilarity is that it was incredible bad luck for the Lizardmen player as the thing routed the first 2 times it had to check and the Crazed Goblins got lucky on their attack dice.  Also, there was a Goblin Bomb Chukker AND a unit of Ravenwood Archers pelting the thing.  So that's 534 points of missile fire alone concentrated on the T-Rex.  Have you ever faced one?  Not only do they rip through just about anything, but the 2/4 defense is incredibly hard to chop through.  So yeah, the T-Rex normally has staying power.

[Quelmotz]

Goblin raiders, Antonian horsemen and Hawk Militia have all been removed. Antonian horsemen are really a plus in any dwarven build despite being slightly overpriced, and militia are ok, goblin raiders can just stand in to fill some cheap space (though crazed goblins offer a cheaper alternative anyway).

[gornhorror]

Well I think that the T-Rex is overpriced if you compare it to the War Elephant.  The war elephant is only 16 points more than the t-rex, but I think it is a much better unit. Here are some reasons why:
 
1.It has one more health bar
2.Gets 2 impact hits on the charge where the T-Rex gets none
3. There is no sacrifice of command cards to play a command card on it
4.Can be controlled(i.e. doesn't have a permenant close order like the T-Rex)
5. Has a ranged attack
6. Gains a +1 to damage in addition to normal charging bonus on the charge turn(yup, you guessed it, the T-Rex doesn't get any extra attack bonuses)

Now I know that the T-Rex has some things over the War Elephant such as a (5)6/8 compared to the(4) 5/7 attack stats and a 2/4 compared to a 1/4 defensive stats plus it moves at  5" compared to  3.5".  That being said I still think that the T-Rex should be considerably less points than 507 if the WE is 523.  The impact hits alone are a big advantage, they are guaranteed damage in most cases which gives the WE an advantage right from the start in any battle. If the WE gets two the T-Rex should get at the very, very least one.  The ability to play command cards on the WE more than makes up for the slight difference in basic stats and the ranged attack gives it more attacks than the T-Rex.  The Lizardmen suffer enough from highly priced units, the extra points from a fairly priced T-Rex would come in handy.

[Kevin]

Well I think that the T-Rex is overpriced if you compare it to the War Elephant.  The war elephant is only 16 points more than the t-rex, but I think it is a much better unit. Here are some reasons why:
 
1.It has one more health bar
2.Gets 2 impact hits on the charge where the T-Rex gets none
3. There is no sacrifice of command cards to play a command card on it
4.Can be controlled(i.e. doesn't have a permenant close order like the T-Rex)
5. Has a ranged attack
6. Gains a +1 to damage in addition to normal charging bonus on the charge turn(yup, you guessed it, the T-Rex doesn't get any extra attack bonuses)

You know what's funny?  I consider the T-Rex a bargain, and the GWE overpriced.  Which right there suggests that they're both priced correctly   

Sure the GWE functions as cavalry: putting out more pain on the charge turn, and less on subsequent turns, but looking at the attack/ defense numbers, the T-Rex, as you point out, is like a GWE with +1/+1 and +1/+0.  To think of it another way, the T-Rex fights as if it were a GWE with a free command card played on it every single time it attacks or defends!

And the T-Rex has more green hits, which are the important ones.  I suspect that one-on-one a T-Rex would eat a GWE for lunch.  The only liability for the T-Rex is its stupidity, but a skilled player will seek to minimize this disadvantage with good set up and using other units to herd it.

[gornhorror]

I've been trying to like the orcs for a long while now.  I like a lot of the units, but I do think the Marauders are overpriced.  367 points would be fair if the attack stats were (7) 6/6 IMHO.  What good is having all those attacks if none of them will do any damage? I'm not saying they need a big decrease, but if I'm gonna pay 367 points I want something that will perform a little better on average against my opponents forces of the same point cost.  Don't get me wrong, I wanna put them in my armies, but I just can't justify it.  They're just to much for what they can do.

[gornhorror]

Well Kevin, if what you say is true, why do I see many more UWE  than T-Rex's in my opponents armies even tho the War Elephant is more points?  I'll tell you why, because when you are making a lizard man army it's hard to justify taking the T-Rex.  On the flip side, I'd bet that when Uzemi players are making their armies it's hard NOT to take the war elephant as part of your force.  Take a look at the posts on this board.  People have nothing but good things to say about the war elephant and how it's a must in their armies because of what it can do.  You don't hear that about the T-Rex.  Sure it's big, it has good basic stats, but it's it's just not used as much.  If people aren't putting it in their armies how can it be better?  Don't get me wrong, I use the T-Rex sometimes, but every time I do, I'm just not sure it's worth it.

[Quelmotz]

BTW, both the T-rex and war elephant move at 5". I'm not sure about the T-rex, but the elephant definitely moves at 5".

(5) 6/8 to (4) 5/7 is a HUGE difference that you are overlooking. (+1) +1/+1 and +1/+0 is far more than any single command card can give. And that means you're playing about 2 command cards or slightly more PER TURN!!! That's 50 points saved per turn, which adds up every round of combat. I know the GWE's other advantages like impact hits which only boost its performance on the charge turn, one more health bar (big deal), ranged attack (who uses it to do staple damage?), no sacrifice of command cards (as I said the T-rex is already like a GWE with 2 command cards played on it so you technically don't need more to make it better than a GWE), (4) 5/9 on the charge turn (yeah who cares about power when you can't hit the freaking enemy).

[Kevin]

I've been trying to like the orcs for a long while now.  I like a lot of the units, but I do think the Marauders are overpriced.  367 points would be fair if the attack stats were (7) 6/6 IMHO.  What good is having all those attacks if none of them will do any damage?

The value of a unit very much depends on whom you're fighting.  For example, if you're going up against High Elves, all of whom have a 2 hardness, 7/6/5 is perfectly fine, particularly as it's 7/6/6/ on the charge turn.  (The thought of facing Orc Marauders scares my High Elf army silly, and the Marauders do even better vs. Wood Elves' 3/1!    )  OTOH, if you're fighting Lizard Men or some other army with thickly-armored troops I agree that that Orc Marauders are not worth it.

Well Kevin, if what you say is true, why do I see many more UWE  than T-Rex's in my opponents armies even tho the War Elephant is more points?

Well for starters, "Mumakil, Bringer of Death and Flatness" is vastly better than any nickname the T-Rex may have.   

But seriously, if you want to play a "heavy," the GWE is all you've got if you're the Umenzi, whereas the Lizard Men have 3 choices:  T-Rex, Triceratops, and Ancients. 

[GoIndy]

(5) 6/8 to (4) 5/7 is a HUGE difference that you are overlooking. (+1) +1/+1 and +1/+0 is far more than any single command card can give. And that means you're playing about 2 command cards or slightly more PER TURN!!! That's 50 points saved per turn, which adds up every round of combat. I know the GWE's other advantages like impact hits which only boost its performance on the charge turn, one more health bar (big deal), ranged attack (who uses it to do staple damage?), no sacrifice of command cards (as I said the T-rex is already like a GWE with 2 command cards played on it so you technically don't need more to make it better than a GWE), (4) 5/9 on the charge turn (yeah who cares about power when you can't hit the freaking enemy).

Now, let me start this by saying I think the T-Rex is probably fine pointswise, but....

1)  It should be noted that the GWE and Rex are both actually 2/4 when closing.  The GWE gains a defensive point that the Rex does not.  This is NOT insignificant.
2)  The Rex has an extra die on the standard attack.  It will take two rounds of combat to have a chance at offseting the 2 impact hits. 
3)  The GWE has the Haradrim warriors tossing javelins off his back.  That's 3 extra attack die every other round, or in other words....more attack die than the Rex. 
4)  It is hard to quantify how much it matters that the GWE can be controlled.  If the Rex could be controlled, it would rule all.  However, it can't. 
5)  The Rex user, because of the uncontrollability, might be 'forced' to take a hatchling or 2 to try to help herd.  While hatchlings are not super expensive, and might have some worth on their own, they are pretty freaking miserable, laugh.  This is then a 91 or 182 point surcharge the Rex user is eating just to hedge his bet a little.
6)  I think the Rex health bar is close to the GWE, personally.  1 extra green, 2 less yellow...not a terrible exchange.

You have to take everything into account, because if you just take two 500 point units and drop them across from each other, than for sure the Rex SHOULD WIN.  He can't be freaking controlled, and if you end up with a sorry state affairs squaring off against him, it's your own freaking fault.  Often the Rex user is going to get run around, or led into an ambush, that no matter how bad it looks, he will do nothing to avoid. 

The REAL question is, how many points would you burn, to have a smart Rex?  One that you didn't have to ditch command cards to play on, and one you modify orders and take direct control.  I'd spend 75 points for that....maybe 100.  Think about your answer would be to that, and then consider what the GWE is worth.

[RushAss]

...about the T-Rex.  Sure it's big, it has good basic stats, but it's it's just not used as much.  If people aren't putting it in their armies how can it be better?  Don't get me wrong, I use the T-Rex sometimes, but every time I do, I'm just not sure it's worth it.

But seriously, if you want to play a "heavy," the GWE is all you've got if you're the Umenzi, whereas the Lizard Men have 3 choices:  T-Rex, Triceratops, and Ancients. 

I think Kevin touched on a good point as to why you may see more Elephants fielded than T-Rexes.  On a unit-to-unit average, the Lizardmen are much more expensive than the Umenzi.  TO further clarify - the Umenzi have only 2 units costed over 300 points (Chosen, GWE) while the Lizardmen have 5 (Both Tyrants, Ancients, Triceratops Herd, T-Rex) and the Raptor Pack is really close at 290.  So the Lizardmen are already more likely to have a couple of high priced units in their army build than the Lizard men, making it more difficult to squeeze the T-Rex in.

Concerning a straight up T-rex vs GWE fight, keep in mind that the ranged attack is only going to generate a point of damage on the T-Rex every other combat round due to the javelineers needing 1s to damage.  So that's almost a non-factor.  Sure it will take the T-Rex a combat round or two to catch up to the impact hits, but it will steadily deal out more damage once engaged.  All that being said, I'm not sure if that's a totally realistic way to work out the points of the units by facing them off against one another.  I mean, Celestial Guard and the T-Rex are even on points, but my money would be on the T-Rex to win a head on fight between those 2 most of the time.  I think the points also has something to do with the role of a unit within the faction.  The GWE is the sole monsterous dude in the Umenzi faction while the T-Rex is the largest of a collection of monsterous dudes.

Concerning GoIndy's idea of creating a smart T-Rex, I'd say a 68 point increase would be a good starting point.  Brings it up to 575.  And no, I didn't think carefully about that one at all

[gornhorror]

Well, I'm glad I always cause a stir after my posts. I like heated debate.  My question is this.  Is the T-Rex used often as compared to the War Elephant? I say no. Why would that be? Maybe because it's not worth the points? Yeah, the lizardmen army has more expensive units so it's harder to fit the T-Rex in your armies.  That being said, if it was worth it, people would put it in.  That is the whole point to having it as a choice isn't it? Using it once in a while. I just don't see it fielded in armies however, which tells me that the cost should be less. When I put it in an army, it's more for shock value than to try to win.  I know it will get pinched horribly & there is not much I can do about it because I wont have many more units in my army because the decent units in the lizardmen armies are quite expensive. Sure I can field trogs instead of tyrants, but they fall quickly in comparison. And, if I do that, what more am I getting in a 1500-2000 point army? Probably like 1, maybe 2 more units if I'm lucky.  Sure I could field a crapload of hatchlings but I would most definitely lose. Make the thing worth while & you will see them more in serious armies.  They shouldn't just be a humorous gag so your opponent can say..."OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, you have a T-Rex.  Then say under his breath, "but your still gonna lose". 

[GoIndy]

A real reason it is hard to put a T-Rex in there, especially compared to the GWE, is the core requirements and costs.  The core units of Umenzi are cheap, the freaking spearman are 170.  The only comparable core unit the Lizards have are the incredibly awful Swarmling warriors. 

Let me field a T-Rex with the Dwarves, and I guarantee you'll see one, chuckle.

[gornhorror]

A real reason it is hard to put a T-Rex in there, especially compared to the GWE, is the core requirements and costs.  The core units of Umenzi are cheap, the freaking spearman are 170.  The only comparable core unit the Lizards have are the incredibly awful Swarmling warriors. 

Let me field a T-Rex with the Dwarves, and I guarantee you'll see one, chuckle.

Well, it would be nice to see.  All those little stubby legged bearded folk running around trying not to get squashed.   But yeah, the core requirement units(at least ones that will put up a fight) are pricey in the lizardman army compared to some others.  Well, hopefully we can play again soon & figure out some things.  Tim if you are going to be available on Saturdays from time to time let me know, we can play one on one.  Maybe we can even get in more than one game.  Seems like it takes the stars to align these days for the whole group to get together. So sad.

[Quelmotz]

I'll say the T-Rex isn't overpriced, but in the context of the lizardmen, who have tons of huge, vicious, monstrous ... erm... monsters to pick from, the T-rex just doesn't stand out enough. Whereas the GWE is about as good as the T-rex in terms of smashing up of units and is a welcome addition to the Umenzi weaklings but the T-rex is just a larger version of already large versions (Triceratops Herd, Ancients, Tyrants, etc.) like The Celestial Guard compared with the Elder Blade Swordsmen.