Which units do you think are overpriced?

[Quelmotz]

The purpose of this thread is to allow Chad/other developers to see which units are less than useful for their prices and change them. Note that these units may or may not be overpriced in your/my opinion, and even I don't agree with some of the forumers opinions (as I demonstrated with the bowmasters example), but as long as 1-2 forum members agree that a unit is overpriced, I'll put it down on the list..

1. Worthy. Worthy are considered overpriced because they cost 30 points more than the berserkers, and they only get 1 def skill, controllability and a leadership range of 3.5". The berserkers have 1 more attack dice and unflappable courage.
2. Bowmasters: I don't really know why these guys are overpriced, but some forum members mentioned it. After an analysis, it seems like bowmasters are worth MORE than longbowmen! Really.
Bowmaster stats: Offense: (4) 7/5 Defence: 2/1 Range: 17.5" Courage: 13 MC: 3.5" Health: 3-3-3
Elite. 335 Points.
Longbowmen stats: Offense: (4) 6/6 Defence: 1/1 Range: 21" Courage: 13 MC: 3.5" Health: 3-2-2
Elite. 358 points.
Is something wrong with the point cost formula? 7/5 should be worth more than 6/6. 2/1 is obviously better than 1/1. 21" and 17.5" isn't that large a difference. 3-3-3 is worth more than 3-2-2. If you ask me, I'll pick the bowmasters. 3.5" range is not worth 23 points. Furthermore, longbowmen's health, defence and offense are all weaker. A possible reason why longbowmen are more valued is because of the Hawk's weak archers, so there is more need for better archers. Also, 6 power IS dangerous for a ranged unit, as it can bring down colossal/large guys with high toughness more easily. The additional 3.5" range would mean the longbowmen have one more round of combat, which is worth at least 30+ points (see umenzi - javelineers). But at extreme range? (4) 4/6 isn't that great IMO, but it could bring some colossal guys down quick (4) 6/6 even at extreme range. It could also be because ravenwood bowmasters are overshadowed by centaurs and other archers. After all, elves are legendary for their bow skills.
3. Chariots are not very useful except in small games. They're quite fragile and are weaker than cygnets in offense, equal in defense. They move 5", and are dangerous, but by no mean deadly, on the charge turn.
4. Skeleton Horde- Too fragile.
5. Skeleton Spearmen- Too fragile.
6. Skeleton Cavalry- I don't really know why, ask Andrew (Dru'ahn the gross). Fragility might be a factor.
7. Death Knights- They cost a whopping 516 points and are more or less on par with the CG, maybe even weaker. And they might rout, which isn't really a big problem for normal factions but for the undead.... Also, they have ye olde giant catapult for competition. On the other hand, the CG has the Elder Blade Swordsmen for competition, as explained below.
8. The Celetial Guard- They never die and can smash through almost anything. But they cost 506 points which doesn't seem like a lot compared to the other big points guys but they're an 150 point upgrade of a unit that also almost never dies and has incredible stats too. Also, they're in an army full of expensive perfectionist units.
9. Longbeards- Constant controversy between choosing these guys or the hammermen. They cost 394 points and they practically never die. But almost all the dwarves never die anyway.
10. Colossal Units- They're rarely used except in 4000 point games, and they usually get weakened by ranged fire. But a plus is their "magnetic" ability for drawing tons of points worth of ranged fire which usually yields few results. (4 toughness?)
11. Elder Blade Battlesquad- They usually don't perform better than the HE battlesquads and they cost 30 points more. The problem is their low dice.
12. Dwarven Ballista- See new 2.4 rules for ranged attacks. Badly affects many ranged units, not just these guys, but these are one of the worst affected.

If you have any reasons why a unit should be put up or taken down from the list, post. Also, post your reasons why a certain unit is overpriced in your opinion.

[Quelmotz]

I'm voting for worthy, chariots, the GWE, Elder blade battlesquad and the CG. I don't have to state the reasons because they're already stated in the first post which is written by me 

[Quelmotz]

Come on, those who voted, post your reasons so I can add on to the list there.

Right now, the HE chariots is leading as the most overpriced unit, with about 8 others with 1 vote.

[GoIndy]

Personally I think the Elementalist is the most overpiced.  They eat a severe hex penalty for the lightning strike, and have to be twice as close to use the comparable Longbowman (4)6/6 attack, while costing more.

I also think the raptors are really high priced.  They don't get a fast modifier, and they don't get a cavalry modifier, meaning they eat the full effect of missile fire, and they have lamesauce courage.  All that, and they cost more than Antonian horseman. 

[RushAss]

2. Bowmasters: I don't really know why these guys are overpriced, but some forum members mentioned it. After an analysis, it seems like bowmasters are worth MORE than longbowmen! Really.
Bowmaster stats: Offense: (4) 7/5 Defence: 2/1 Range: 17.5" Courage: 13 MC: 3.5" Health: 3-3-3
Elite. 335 Points.
Longbowmen stats: Offense: (4) 6/6 Defence: 1/1 Range: 21" Courage: 13 MC: 3.5" Health: 3-2-2
Elite. 358 points.
Is something wrong with the point cost formula? 7/5 should be worth more than 6/6. 2/1 is obviously better than 1/1. 21" and 17.5" isn't that large a difference. 3-3-3 is worth more than 3-2-2. If you ask me, I'll pick the bowmasters. 3.5" range is not worth 23 points. Furthermore, longbowmen's health, defence and offense are all weaker. A possible reason why longbowmen are more valued is because of the Hawk's weak archers, so there is more need for better archers. Also, 6 power IS dangerous for a ranged unit, as it can bring down colossal/large guys with high toughness more easily. The additional 3.5" range would mean the longbowmen have one more round of combat, which is worth at least 30+ points (see umenzi - javelineers). But at extreme range? (4) 4/6 isn't that great IMO, but it could bring some colossal guys down quick (4) 6/6 even at extreme range. It could also be because ravenwood bowmasters are overshadowed by centaurs and other archers. After all, elves are legendary for their bow skills.

It would be a rare day indeed when you see me field Bowmasters.  They are really nice, but they are not much better than the Regular Ravenwood Bowmen.  Or at least not 100 points worth!  Sure they will hit just about anything, but I like shooting at big stuff with bowmen and most big stuff has a defensive toughness of 3 or 4.

4. Skeleton Horde- Too fragile.
5. Skeleton Spearmen- Too fragile.

I agree and I think most other folks here agree as well.  I think they need 1 more green or yellow box, but not both.  

7. Death Knights- They cost a whopping 516 points and are more or less on par with the CG, maybe even weaker. And they might rout, which isn't really a big problem for normal factions but for the undead.... Also, they have ye olde giant catapult for competition. On the other hand, the CG has the Elder Blade Swordsmen for competition, as explained below.

I think these guys cost about 40-50 points too much.  Our resident Undead player has NEVER USED THEM in over 2 years of playing the Undead for that exact reason and I can't say I blame him.  Identical stats to Hawk Knights except the 2*/4 defense vs the Hawk 2*/3 defense.  Does that extra defensive stat and the ability to use 3 command actions to reanimate these guys equal 100 points?  I don't think so.

15. Dwarven Ballista- See new 2.4 rules for ranged attacks. Badly affects many ranged units, not just these guys, but these are one of the worst affected.

I started a thread about this in the rules area.  The 2.4 missile fire rules means that the balista will get 4-5 shots tops in most games unless it's a specific scenario.  294 points is a lot to pay for 4-5 shots.  The shame of it is that the Balista was a truly unique unit in a faction full of static infantry and now we'll never see one fielded again.  Sad.

A few comments about other units in the poll:

Longbeards - On paper the Hammermen look close, but they really are not unless facing weak opponents.  1/4 defense is a clear improvement over 1/3 defense and 14 courage is awesome.  Not to mention never having to roll a fear check.  So while they are costly, I think the Beards are worth it.  Besides, they are immortalized in song!

Antonians - I think it's about dead even when comparing them to Stags.  280 is a lot to pay for a light Cavalry unit, but the speediness they bring to the sluggish Dwarves is a huge help for the faction while the Stags are not as critical since the Ravenwood Elves have plenty of other speedy stuff.  Both are really good at what they do and I like them both.

Goblin Raiders suck harder than the Oakland Raiders on draft day, but what do you expect for a 143 point core unit?  At least they can hurt you just as much as the other guy with the (5) 5/5 offense and a timely lashing can move them into position to cause the opponent problems.  Geez, did I just defend Goblin Raiders?

[Quelmotz]

2. Bowmasters: I don't really know why these guys are overpriced, but some forum members mentioned it. After an analysis, it seems like bowmasters are worth MORE than longbowmen! Really.
Bowmaster stats: Offense: (4) 7/5 Defence: 2/1 Range: 17.5" Courage: 13 MC: 3.5" Health: 3-3-3
Elite. 335 Points.
Longbowmen stats: Offense: (4) 6/6 Defence: 1/1 Range: 21" Courage: 13 MC: 3.5" Health: 3-2-2
Elite. 358 points.
Is something wrong with the point cost formula? 7/5 should be worth more than 6/6. 2/1 is obviously better than 1/1. 21" and 17.5" isn't that large a difference. 3-3-3 is worth more than 3-2-2. If you ask me, I'll pick the bowmasters. 3.5" range is not worth 23 points. Furthermore, longbowmen's health, defence and offense are all weaker. A possible reason why longbowmen are more valued is because of the Hawk's weak archers, so there is more need for better archers. Also, 6 power IS dangerous for a ranged unit, as it can bring down colossal/large guys with high toughness more easily. The additional 3.5" range would mean the longbowmen have one more round of combat, which is worth at least 30+ points (see umenzi - javelineers). But at extreme range? (4) 4/6 isn't that great IMO, but it could bring some colossal guys down quick (4) 6/6 even at extreme range. It could also be because ravenwood bowmasters are overshadowed by centaurs and other archers. After all, elves are legendary for their bow skills.

It would be a rare day indeed when you see me field Bowmasters.  They are really nice, but they are not much better than the Regular Ravenwood Bowmen.  Or at least not 100 points worth!  Sure they will hit just about anything, but I like shooting at big stuff with bowmen and most big stuff has a defensive toughness of 3 or 4.
True, but longbowmen aren't much better than ravenwood archers themselves. The power of 6 isn't crap, but it isn't worth the 30 or so points more than a bowmaster. Especially when bowmasters are harder to hit and have more health. And 7/5 is better than 6/6 in almost all situations, unless you're targeting high toughness guys.

4. Skeleton Horde- Too fragile.
5. Skeleton Spearmen- Too fragile.

I agree and I think most other folks here agree as well.  I think they need 1 more green or yellow box, but not both.

7. Death Knights- They cost a whopping 516 points and are more or less on par with the CG, maybe even weaker. And they might rout, which isn't really a big problem for normal factions but for the undead.... Also, they have ye olde giant catapult for competition. On the other hand, the CG has the Elder Blade Swordsmen for competition, as explained below.

I think these guys cost about 40-50 points too much.  Our resident Undead player has NEVER USED THEM in over 2 years of playing the Undead for that exact reason and I can't say I blame him.  Identical stats to Hawk Knights except the 2*/4 defense vs the Hawk 2*/3 defense.  Does that extra defensive stat and the ability to use 3 command actions to reanimate these guys equal 100 points?  I don't think so. Exactly. I would say either a reduction of points to something like 456 or something would be the best option. If that isn't possible, an increase in offense would be the best thing, but it'll probably be going across the limit if the offense becomes something like (7) 6/6 or (6) 7/6 or (6) 6/7 without modifiers. So its obvious that the reduction of point costs would be the best option. Adding health would make it overpowered probably.

15. Dwarven Ballista- See new 2.4 rules for ranged attacks. Badly affects many ranged units, not just these guys, but these are one of the worst affected.

I started a thread about this in the rules area.  The 2.4 missile fire rules means that the balista will get 4-5 shots tops in most games unless it's a specific scenario.  294 points is a lot to pay for 4-5 shots.  The shame of it is that the Balista was a truly unique unit in a faction full of static infantry and now we'll never see one fielded again.  Sad.

A few comments about other units in the poll:

Longbeards - On paper the Hammermen look close, but they really are not unless facing weak opponents.  1/4 defense is a clear improvement over 1/3 defense and 14 courage is awesome.  Not to mention never having to roll a fear check.  So while they are costly, I think the Beards are worth it.  Besides, they are immortalized in song!

Antonians - I think it's about dead even when comparing them to Stags.  280 is a lot to pay for a light Cavalry unit, but the speediness they bring to the sluggish Dwarves is a huge help for the faction while the Stags are not as critical since the Ravenwood Elves have plenty of other speedy stuff.  Both are really good at what they do and I like them both.

Goblin Raiders suck harder than the Oakland Raiders on draft day, but what do you expect for a 143 point core unit?  At least they can hurt you just as much as the other guy with the (5) 5/5 offense and a timely lashing can move them into position to cause the opponent problems.  Geez, did I just defend Goblin Raiders?

[gornhorror]

I don't think any of the HIGH ELF units are overpriced, period.  Actually, I think that the battle squads are a tad bit underpriced.  The HE Chariots are fine at 252, they have a 6-5 offense with an extra impact hit, not to mention all the HE ablities & they still are considered charging if you flank them. I always used to think that the CG was way overpriced. However after playtesting them in a few battles I think they are well worth the 506 points.  They chop thru anything they face & usually don't take much in return unless they are pinched.  I agree with the post above that said that the Raptor Pack is overpriced.  It needs a boost in it's defensive stats IMHO.  They should be a 3-2 or considered cavalry.  Then they would be worth the 290 points.  I agree with RushAss about the Death Nights, they are waaaaaaaay overpriced.  Well, that's my 2 cents. More to come I'm sure.

[Kevin]

I don't think any of the HIGH ELF units are overpriced, period.

I totally agree that the Celestial Guard is not overpriced by any yardstick!  In large part because these guys are really efficient at turning command card bonuses directly into extra damage.

And I personally have come to really like having one unit of Chariots in my army.  Why?  Because, while they could be foiled by a unit of spearmen on hold, a unit of spearmen costs more of less the same as the Chariots, so if they spend the game staring at each other it's no big loss.  And the chariots can still shatter a weak unit in one turn. 

That said, I do think three High Elf units are overpriced, though ironically none of them make the list at the top of the thread. 


1)  High Elf Scorpions.  -  Like the dwarven ballista, they get totally nerfed by the 2.4 rules.  They're not allowed to fire at engaged units, and under 2.4 they can't fire over engaged units, which means that after a few shots the crews break out the lembas bread and idly watch the battle unfold.

Seriously, units which have been totally nerfed by rules which didn't exist when they were designed should have their costs recalculated.


2)  High Elf Swordsmen

299 points for an anemic 6/5.    If a unit with a 4 hardness plows into them they'll only punch through on a 1.  Compare them to Elder Blade Rangers, who are 6/6 and move at 5" rather than 3.5", all for a mere 8 points more.  Yeah, the rangers have fewer yellow and red boxes and are 3/1 rather than 3/2, but I consider those minor drawbacks.

I suppose that my assessments are based on playing a lot of 2000-point battles, and thus wanting a fairly spread-out line.  With the cheapest elf unit at 177 points, I can only afford 2-3 good units, and for one of these precious units whom I'm counting on to rip through an opponent to have such anemic attack numbers...meh.   
Were I to do more 3000+ point battles, where I could afford good units the entire way across, these guys might be good flypaper.

3)  High Elf Spearmen

Pretty much the same complaint as the swordsmen.  And while they'll do well vs. large units on the turn they charge, they'll have a really hard time hurting their target after the charge turn.  Also, for the same reason why I like the Chariots, I dislike the spearmen--it's no fun to hold cavalry at bay when your spearmen doing so cost as much as the other guy.  Unless I were fighting the Umenzi or others with a 1 toughness, I honestly think I'd rather have Elder Blade Rangers, who are 25 points cheaper.

[Niko White]

I think y'all need to distinguish between overcosted and not widely useful

Most of the things you're talking about aren't necessarily too expensive as much as fill roles that their armies don't need filled.

There are a lot of High Elf units I rarely take, but I don't think any of them (even the Scorpions!) are overpriced; they just don't tend to work in the armies I play.  Scorpions were lame before the rules change because static weapons batteries aren't something the High Elves want.  (That said, you can arrange for them to get tons of shots if you want because you can run your guys around in annoying ways; I bring them from time to time.)

The only one I'll never ever bring is the Elder Blade Battle Squads, and that's because +1 to wound on a Battle Squad seems pointless to me; there's virtually no cost at which you'd make me run these guys that isn't "as low as the non-Elder Blades" and that's clearly dumb.

[gornhorror]

Well, I wasn't even thinking about the scorpions because with the rules the way they currently are, they are just not feasible.  I think I will start playing them WITH the ability to shoot at engaged targets.  I just don't get that rule. I think they are priced ok if you take away that rule.  As far as the spearmen & the swordsmen, I think they are priced just right.  You will find it hard to say after a game, "Not gonna use them again, they didn't perform well enough for the points".

[Quelmotz]

Well, I wasn't even thinking about the scorpions because with the rules the way they currently are, they are just not feasible.  I think I will start playing them WITH the ability to shoot at engaged targets.  I just don't get that rule. I think they are priced ok if you take away that rule.  As far as the spearmen & the swordsmen, I think they are priced just right.  You will find it hard to say after a game, "Not gonna use them again, they didn't perform well enough for the points".

Agreed. I hate the new 2.4 rules' effects on almost all ranged units. Also, even if a ballista/scorpion shoots at an engaged unit, it probably will just have a chance of hitting their own units. A system that if you shoot at an engaged unit, roll a die for all units engaged with it. If you roll a 6 for that unit, it takes one damage.

[RushAss]

-1 penalty to hit engaged units or hitting your own units on a 6 if firing into an engagement are both close to even in my eyes.  If YMG feels that the -1 to hit is the way to go and it works for almost all existing ranged units, that's fine with me.  They just need to errata the points costs for the Balistas and Scorpions and that should be that.  IMO of course.

Looking at the poll results so far, it's clear to me that the leaders in the overcosted derby are the Skeleton units.  I'm thinking maybe that Orc Marauders should also be on the list?  I'd say 350 points is good for them.  Which is only a 17 point drop from where the currently are.  But that's no biggie.

Colossal units being over-costed:  While they are pricey, any current colossal unit will have a huge impact on any game.  They will either win the game for you if not handled properly, or they will at least cause your opponent to do all kinds of stuff to prevent that from happening.  While this is true of many super units, it's really evident for the colossal guys.  They should be expensive.  So I think they are OK points-wise.

[ajax98]

Agreed. I hate the new 2.4 rules' effects on almost all ranged units. Also, even if a ballista/scorpion shoots at an engaged unit, it probably will just have a chance of hitting their own units. A system that if you shoot at an engaged unit, roll a die for all units engaged with it. If you roll a 6 for that unit, it takes one damage.

Rules v.2.4 p.58 (these have been in the rules since 2.2 I believe.)
Optional Rules

Shooting into Engagements (Optional Rule)
When shooting at an enemy unit that is engaged with friendly units, there is a chance that some of the missiles will strike the friendly unit.

After all command cards have been played, each to hit roll of “6” causes one hit to the friendly unit (roll to damage normally). If more then one friendly unit is engaged with the target, for each “6” randomly determine which friendly unit is hit.
****

We tend to play with all the Optional Rules. There have been times when my Atlatl unit has inflicted more damage on my own units than the enemy.

[Quelmotz]

-1 penalty to hit engaged units or hitting your own units on a 6 if firing into an engagement are both close to even in my eyes.  If YMG feels that the -1 to hit is the way to go and it works for almost all existing ranged units, that's fine with me.  They just need to errata the points costs for the Balistas and Scorpions and that should be that.  IMO of course.

Looking at the poll results so far, it's clear to me that the leaders in the overcosted derby are the Skeleton units.  I'm thinking maybe that Orc Marauders should also be on the list?  I'd say 350 points is good for them.  Which is only a 17 point drop from where the currently are.  But that's no biggie.

Colossal units being over-costed:  While they are pricey, any current colossal unit will have a huge impact on any game.  They will either win the game for you if not handled properly, or they will at least cause your opponent to do all kinds of stuff to prevent that from happening.  While this is true of many super units, it's really evident for the colossal guys.  They should be expensive.  So I think they are OK points-wise.

Colossal units usually only have strong staying power (elephant) or incredible damage for an overpriced cost. The elephant is an excellent magnet for arrows/other ranged attacks that almost never hit it, and even strong melee units get almost flattened out by the Elephant's charge. Still, due to bad luck, my GWE only did 2(!!!!) damage on a Elder Blade Swordsmen when it charged it. IMO, the GWE will probably die easily to a Celestial Guard one on one, but it also has the power of attracting ranged fire that doesn't do much damage. Even though it'll probably die to a CG, I'm quite sure it'll hold it there for quite a lot of turns, while doing quite a few points of damage on the charge.

I don't know about the T-Rex, but it should be a real heavy hitter based on the stats. BTW Rush, do you remember that session report where the T-Rex routed to a bunch of crazed goblins?

[Niko White]

Marauders are not at all overcosted, those guys rule.

Also, still pretty sure Scorpions are fine.  I don't play Dwarves enough to know about the ballista, but I could see that one needing help due to the tendency of the Dwarves to move around in big blocks.