The Chad Ellis Ravenwood Review

[Hannibal]

Jatha pretty well sums it up.  While Kevin is correct that Bears can perform the roles he explained, the rebuttal is that they don't do any of those particularly well enough to be worth it.  Usually there's some other unit more capable of performing as medium cavalry or heavy infantry.

Awhile back, I ran the bears (and wolves) through the formula without the CC restriction.  Wolves end up costing like 10 pts more and Bears end up costing like 30-40 pts more.  I'd be more than willing to drop 30 pts into the bears if it meant they became a decent breakthrough unit, because if you've already dropped 300pts into a unit to have it not do its job well enough, an extra 10% to make them useful is a no-brainer to me.  Given how many changes to text and cards are being proposed, I'm of the opinion of just errata-ing the card with a new cost and stricken language.

[Kevin]

The key is to be unpredictable.  If I know for sure that Stag Cavalry are going on a flank, I'll take a low-200s-point Spear unit if one is available, and Stag Cav, which costs 50ish points more than my unit, is probably going to lose.  But I absolutely agree that there are things which the Stag Cav. do better, or cheaper, than Bear Packs.

Not playing cards is pretty harsh in the immediate sense, but in a holistic sense it isn't as bad as it looks.  If your opponent is using cards on that battle, there's another battle where he's not using those cards.

-----------

On a tangent, Jatha, you sound like you know your stuff.  Have you thought about coming to the Battleground Championship Tournament?  It's happening in February near Boston, Mass; I'm the judge.  There's a very high level of competition, not least the opportunity to play the game designers themselves, as well as folks who frequent the boards!  (Plus big cash prizes, details on the thread.)  It'd be awesome if you can make it!

[Kevin]

I'd be more than willing to drop 30 pts into the bears if it meant they became a decent breakthrough unit, because if you've already dropped 300pts into a unit to have it not do its job well enough, an extra 10% to make them useful is a no-brainer to me.  Given how many changes to text and cards are being proposed, I'm of the opinion of just errata-ing the card with a new cost and stricken language.

The number of proposed changes (which have any chance of becoming actual rules) to unit cards remains precisely zero.

Ravenwood strikes me as the very last faction to need another "breakthrough unit."  In addition to Centaurs (Jesus H Christ 6 dice at 6/5 and 6 more at 6/7 with an impact hit isn't "breakthrough" enough for you?), the Ravenwood Swordsmen & Spearmen hit harder than their Hawkshold counterparts, in exchange for being slightly more fragile.  Bearkin are also hard-hitting for their cost.  And then there's the Stag Cavalry and the Treant (which is expensive, but packs a solid punch).

[Hannibal]

The number of proposed changes (which have any chance of becoming actual rules) to unit cards remains precisely zero.

Other than Skeletons.  And Trolls.  And Determination.  And Fury.  And Witching Hour.  And Umenzi healing.  And Ravenwood Command cards.  And Dark Elf command cards.

But yeah, other than those, the number of changes to texts and cards is absolutely zero.   

Ravenwood strikes me as the very last faction to need another "breakthrough unit."

Don't think I particularly advocated that point.  My point was that its a neat unit that stays in the box because its a whole lot of points spent to do something that could be done cheaper and more effectively with other cards.  Yes, the army is a breakthrough army with all the various units you described.  This would just give the faction another way to do what is part of their theme:  be hard hitting to bust someone up quick. 

shrug  I guess I don't see what's wrong with making a neat unit useful.  I've never heard people complain about how too many choices when it comes to building a good list.

[BubblePig]

I'd be more than willing to drop 30 pts into the bears if it meant they became a decent breakthrough unit.

I think this 'fix' changes the unit in too many ways i.e. you are changing the cost and changing the way the unit behaves.

The number of proposed changes (which have any chance of becoming actual rules) to unit cards remains precisely zero.

Other than Skeletons.  And Trolls.  And Determination.  And Fury.  And Witching Hour.  And Umenzi healing.  And Ravenwood Command cards.  And Dark Elf command cards.

But yeah, other than those, the number of changes to texts and cards is absolutely zero. 

Corey, I agree that Kevin overstated his case, but Skeletons etc. are far less of a change than what you seem to be proposing here.

[Kevin]

The number of proposed changes (which have any chance of becoming actual rules) to unit cards remains precisely zero.

Other than Skeletons.  And Trolls.

Things which already happened are by definition not "proposed."  But yes, the Skeletons were tweaked over a year ago--it didn't change their point cost.  The extremely minor revision of Trolls 4-6 months ago didn't change their point cost either, nor did it alter the front of the card:  it just removed a special rule printed on the back.  

And Determination.  And Fury.  And Witching Hour.  And Umenzi healing.  And Ravenwood Command cards.  And Dark Elf command cards.

Not "unit cards."

I guess I don't see what's wrong with making a neat unit useful.

They're already useful!  Read the game report linked above.

[Jatha]

Ravenwood is based on having a number of units that each do one thing very well. Yes, Centaurs are an excellent breakthrough unit, but in a certain sense they have to be, because with a 2/2 defense bar, getting bogged down in a fight as a cavalry unit is certain doom. Bowmasters counter enemies with a high defense skill, but cost far too much to use in your everyday battle. Swordsmen and Spearmen will soften up opposing units, but if your heavies don't come through for you, they'll never win on their own. Even brownies, which make surprisingly good speedbumps, are unable to inflict anything beyond minimal damage (at least in my experience).

Now, by adding all these different units into one faction, it's easy to plan out your strategy beforehand and select the appropriate units to maximise point efficiency. Bears, however, suffer from trying to fill several roles at once, none of which are complementary. As a result, the bearpack will always provide less bang for the buck than an optimized unit from another faction that fulfills a similar role.

Edit:

I'd be more than willing to drop 30 pts into the bears if it meant they became a decent breakthrough unit.

I think this 'fix' changes the unit in too many ways i.e. you are changing the cost and changing the way the unit behaves.

Personally, I would rather change bears to better match the rest of the faction than keep them how they are now. They don't need to be a breakthough unit, they just need to have their niche.

[Jatha]

On a tangent, Jatha, you sound like you know your stuff.  Have you thought about coming to the Battleground Championship Tournament?  It's happening in February near Boston, Mass; I'm the judge.  There's a very high level of competition, not least the opportunity to play the game designers themselves, as well as folks who frequent the boards!  (Plus big cash prizes, details on the thread.)  It'd be awesome if you can make it!

I've been considering attending this year, though as of yet I'm not sure I'll be able to come. Rest assured, though, if I can make it up there this year, I most certainly will.

[Hannibal]

Corey, I agree that Kevin overstated his case, but Skeletons etc. are far less of a change than what you seem to be proposing here.

Sure, yeah, but I'm not actually proposing a change.    I'm just chatting, really. 

The number of proposed changes (which have any chance of becoming actual rules) to unit cards remains precisely zero.

Sigh.  Yes, and my initial point is that "Given how many changes to text and cards are being proposed" which you felt important to artificially narrow to 'units.'  Changing how army abilities work affects units as much as changing their stats.

But really, I wasn't spoiling for a fight here, Kevin.  I was just expressing an opinion.  If I'd have known it'd whip you up, I wouldn't have done. 

This is me raising my hands and slowly backing out of the room.

[RushAss]

As maddening as their deficiencies can be, I still like the Bear Pack the way that they are.  They have a unique character that I find endearing even though you can't help them out with command cards and you need to bring Bear Kin along unless you don't mind them running wild.  I see them as a specialized unit based upon the faction you are facing.  If it's a faction that has a good amount of units with high defensive skill like High or Dark Elves, I probably won't bring them because enemy command card play can easily make Bear attacks hit only on ones and there's not a darn thing you can do about it.  But for those factions like Lizardmen, Orcs, Dwarves, Undead, andn Hawks who don't have much in the way of high defensive Skill the Bear Pack can be pretty effective.  Interestingly enough, Bearkin can do pretty well against those factions as well.  So they sort of work hand in hand.

The fact of the matter is that they are not a core unit and the Ravenwood Core units are for the most part pretty good, so you don't really *need* to bring the Bear Pack if you don't want to.  Just about every faction has an oddball unit or two that are rarely useful but have interesting flavor.  Hawk Pikemen, Dwarven Miners, Monsters & Mercs Earth Elementals, the list goes on.  In Ravenwood's case you get the Bear Pack.  And as Kevin pointed out, if you are not playing command cards on them, you are getting to play more command cards on somebody else.

Edit: I forgot to mention that they can stand up to incredible abuse.  Their 1/3 defensive stat is average, but that stat bar is incredible (best 12 box stat bar in the game!) and the 14 courage makes it such that you may have to kill them outright.  Which exposed your own units to high damage potential.  The only thing I find to be slightly off about them is that they have to roll fear checks against things like Ogres and Dark Elves.  Do you really thing A pack of Grizzlies would give a flying damn about facing units like those? 

[Jatha]

As maddening as their deficiencies can be, I still like the Bear Pack the way that they are.  They have a unique character that I find endearing even though you can't help them out with command cards and you need to bring Bear Kin along unless you don't mind them running wild.  I see them as a specialized unit based upon the faction you are facing.  If it's a faction that has a good amount of units with high defensive skill like High or Dark Elves, I probably won't bring them because enemy command card play can easily make Bear attacks hit only on ones and there's not a darn thing you can do about it.  But for those factions like Lizardmen, Orcs, Dwarves, Undead, andn Hawks who don't have much in the way of high defensive Skill the Bear Pack can be pretty effective.  Interestingly enough, Bearkin can do pretty well against those factions as well.  So they sort of work hand in hand.

The fact of the matter is that they are not a core unit and the Ravenwood Core units are for the most part pretty good, so you don't really *need* to bring the Bear Pack if you don't want to.  Just about every faction has an oddball unit or two that are rarely useful but have interesting flavor.  Hawk Pikemen, Dwarven Miners, Monsters & Mercs Earth Elementals, the list goes on.  In Ravenwood's case you get the Bear Pack.  And as Kevin pointed out, if you are not playing command cards on them, you are getting to play more command cards on somebody else.

Edit: I forgot to mention that they can stand up to incredible abuse.  Their 1/3 defensive stat is average, but that stat bar is incredible (best 12 box stat bar in the game!) and the 14 courage makes it such that you may have to kill them outright.  Which exposed your own units to high damage potential.  The only thing I find to be slightly off about them is that they have to roll fear checks against things like Ogres and Dark Elves.  Do you really thing A pack of Grizzlies would give a flying damn about facing units like those? 

This is quite true. Come to think of it, I've had some small success using bears against large and colossal units, though I attributed that to luck at the time. Still, if Bears were immune to Fearsome units, that would be enough for me to bring them out if I thought my opponent was bringing Trolls or something.

[gornhorror]

What I like about bears is some of the more subtle strengths.  They have a really good stat bar and they have 6 attack dice with a great courage.  They really don't need command cards as much as other units.  What I like to do is send in a unit of brownies and have them pinch WITH the bears.  Problem solved.  Now your bears are a (6) 6/7 1/3 or better if their charging or flanking.  That's really good.  The only thing that I would think would be a good change if that you could play a command card if you discard a command card. But yeah, the bears are fine as is.

[gornhorror]

Our group played some battleground last night.  We play some one on one fights but then had a 4000 on 4000 point barn burner. Me and Rob with Ravenwood and the High Elves and Marcus and Chris with Rome and the Orcs.  I would just like to say that I think the 4 defensive skill that the Stags have on the charge make them one of the best units in the game.  It really saves them a lot of damage on the way in(usually). They are by far my favorite unit in the faction, and possible my favorite unit in the game.  Everybody who plays Ravenwood should have at least one in their armies.  Marcus?

[Niko White]

Yeah Marcus has a good point.  Bears are odd because they have sort of an awkward mix of strengths that means they don't always fit in to a traditional army well, but if you need that mix, they're one of the few units in the game that has it.  The 12 health, six dice, and great courage are particularly relevant because it gives them a good matchup against a lot of traditional breakthrough units that try to heavily front-load damage.  They're quite likely to live through the charge turn without being down to really irrelevant numbers of dice, and will cut up most light or medium defense units after that.  It's a bit weird/awkward because they also aren't likely to win within the first few turns (barring a lucky rout or something) so you can't count on it for a true reversal, but even so, it can be a nasty surprise for an enemy expecting more traditional Ravenwood cavalry.

[RushAss]

Right Niko, right!

Our group played some battleground last night.  We play some one on one fights but then had a 4000 on 4000 point barn burner. Me and Rob with Ravenwood and the High Elves and Marcus and Chris with Rome and the Orcs.  I would just like to say that I think the 4 defensive skill that the Stags have on the charge make them one of the best units in the game.  It really saves them a lot of damage on the way in(usually). They are by far my favorite unit in the faction, and possible my favorite unit in the game.  Everybody who plays Ravenwood should have at least one in their armies.  Marcus?

Brook is preaching to the choir here because he knows I already love this unit 

I'm writing this game up now and boy did the Stags make a bloody mess in that one, including a total tooling of Trolls in a straight up fight.