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Author Topic: New Faction Idea - The Sons of Kronos (Now with rough costs)  (Read 3449 times)
ZiNOS
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« on: March 02, 2009, 02:27:12 pm »

I have been working on this army for a long time (not many work hours mind you, but taking it and leaving it all the time). It is actually a port from the Sons of Kronos faction of the miniature game Chronopia in BGFW.

Here are the files you need to play this faction.
Note that this is the "official" proxy format used for the playtesting of the future factions.
http://www.filefactory.com/file/ag6ce4e/n/Sons_of_Cronos_Units_doc
http://www.filefactory.com/file/ag6ce4b/n/Sons_of_Cronos_CC_doc


Thnx to Chad for the rough cost estimates.
The following are redundant, i will fix them as soon as possible.

Imagine the Sons of Kronos as the stereotypical Celt/Druid fantasy tribe, aka Simon Bisley is happy when he draws lots of blood and non-anatomical muscles. Check Saline the Horned God comic book or this miniature from the actual game: http://www.princeaugust.ie/ebay/warzone/hearthguard_leader_photo.jpg

Faction Ability:
Ferocity: Spend a CA to mark the box. Erase to get one impact hit and an additional +1 damage when final rushing. All units get the check box except the slingers, the Unliving and the warhounds

Battle Lust:When making free attacks to routing units, SoK foot units get +3/0/0
 +1 MC when final rushing against routing units


So, here with the list and some guesses at their cost.


Tribal Warriors   

(5)/5/5  1/1, 5/4/2 Range 3.5", Courage 11, Move 3.5"   Core
Ferocity
Javelins and sword
See umenzi Javelis for the rules

Slingers
(4)5*/5*   1/1,   3/4/2 Range 7'', Courage   10, Move 5'' Core
Sling (LOS range attack).
When this unit is final rushed, you may rout this unit without getting hit by free attacks. The unit that charged you moves full movent towards you. This unit may gain but does not provide pinching bonuses.

HearthGuard
(5)/5/6  1/2, 5/4/2 Range N/A, Courage 13, Move 3.5"   Core
Ferocity
Two Handed Sword

Hunters   
(6*)/5*/5*  1/2, 5/4/2 Range N/A, Courage 13, Move 3.5"      Core
Ferocity
Spears, Spearmen

Warhounds

(7)/4*/4*  1/1, 4/4/2 Range N/A, Courage 10, Move 5"   pts
 +0/+1+1 when attacking the same unit with a unit of hunters.

Berserkers
(7)/5/5  1/2, 5/4/2 Range N/A, N/A, Move 3.5" pts
Ferocity
Close order always,   Immune to Fear, Two axes

Blade Maidens
(5)/6/6  3/1, 4/3/3 Range N/A, Courage 14, Move 3.5"    pts
Ferocity, Immune to fear
Two Handed Sword

AonBarr Horse Warriors
(5)/5/5*  3*/1, 3/2/2 Range N/A, Courage 12, Move 7"   Core
Ferocity
Cavalry
On horses, Sword

Monarchs
(6)/5/5*  3*/2, 3/2/2 Range N/A, Courage 13, Move 6"      Elite
Ferocity
Cavalry
On Stags,
Immune to fear
Spear

The Unliving

(4)/4/5 1/1, 4/4/2 Range N/A, Courage N/A, Move 3.5"   
Axes

Viridian Lords
(5)/5/7  2/3, 5/4/4 Range 3.5'', Courage N/A, Move 3.5"   
Ferocity, Immune to fear, Fearsome, Large
Reaver Axe

The Wyrd
   Spell Caster      Spell list to follow Smiley, someday Smiley However, this is one ability that i like.
Animal afinity: target a cavalry unit on the board. Put a "panic" token on the unit. The controller of this unit must spend a command action to remove the panic token. Cavalry units with a panic token on them cannot do anything in their turn, not even fight back.

Command cards:
Run like the wind   x1
All your foot units get +1 MC for this turn   

Savage Warriors    x2
Play during your movement and command phase. Target engaged enemy unit that will get this attack gets -2 morale until the end of round

Breath of the Dragon x2
All ranged units get -2/0/-2 for your turn and your opponent's turn.   

Savage roots     x2
Place this command card anywhere on the battlefield. It counts as rough terrain and anyone partially on it gets -1/-1/-1   

Horn of Celtchar   x2
Play this card before you roll in the current courage phase. Discard x cards. X units pass their courage check   

Spear of Lyr    x1
Target unit gets -2/-2 until end of turn   

Comments welcome!
   
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 11:31:23 am by ZiNOS » Logged

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lazyj
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 05:38:44 pm »

Cool.

One thing Chad pointed out in my faction was that if you're going for a "Barbarian Horde" thing (maybe you're not, but I was) then 5 Green health may be overdoing it for your line units. I'm thinking of making that change lower.

I like the Warhound idea.

Any chariots?
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ZiNOS
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2009, 05:11:04 pm »

I think that the low defense and armour of the troops will probably tick these extra green boxes fast enough. Maybe the hearhguard should go to 1/1 from 2/1 but this only playtest will tell. Just think how often your gobbos are shred to pieces.

I really like the warhounds also Smiley.

I like your chariots a lot so i don't think that i will come with something better/different than your version of them.

Any commends on the command cards?

Cheers.
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lazyj
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 07:09:53 pm »

The Savage Roots is very similar to one of mine - so of course I like it!  Wink  I think the difference between your penalty and my bonus is about a wash. I wanted to really get some of the less common terrain bonuses involved. I also try to let everyone know that it was your idea first to have the card be played on the battlefield - I just decided it would be the primary mechanic of their magic system, so I have a lot more.

I like Breath of the Dragon as I am worried that my Celts would get cut to pieces by ranged attacks. Definitely need to think of some missile defense.

Out of curiosity how did you know how much they would cost? Do you have access to Chad's magic formula? I'm kind of stuck with mine as I'm not sure what to estimate for point costs so I don't know how many could be fielded at once.
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gull2112
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From the RUSH faction


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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 07:24:31 pm »

Celts should have slingers. Do not underestimate the deadliness of sling shot. There is a reason they were so prevalent. I don't have figures on range, but they commonly defeated classical armor. Sure you could use stones, but lead bullets were the preference. Don't base your perceptions on what role playing games say a sling was as a weapon. Unless you were behind your shield or wearing heavy armor, a sling bullet would very likely crush your bone when it hit.
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Niko White
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 07:37:46 pm »

Celts should have slingers. Do not underestimate the deadliness of sling shot. There is a reason they were so prevalent. I don't have figures on range, but they commonly defeated classical armor. Sure you could use stones, but lead bullets were the preference. Don't base your perceptions on what role playing games say a sling was as a weapon. Unless you were behind your shield or wearing heavy armor, a sling bullet would very likely crush your bone when it hit.

Of course, one issue with them is they'd pretty clearly use the Skirmisher rules, which I think aren't available in general yet, right? Tongue

But yeah, slingers were awesome, even if my Firefox spellcheck doesn't recognize that they are a word.
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lazyj
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2009, 09:15:28 pm »

I don't know. I haven't seen much on Celtic Slings but maybe I just haven't paid attention.

For me, the "Barbarian Horde" thing that I was going for doesn't seem to have room for well coordinated Skirmishers of any type performing an orderly fire and retreat strategy. I'd more pictured crazy hairy dudes screaming as they flung themselves into the enemy lines. That's just me.

I do agree that the slings are currently under-represented though. I'd like to see them somewhere.
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Chad_YMG
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 10:02:30 am »

Faction Ability:
Ferocity: Spend a CA to mark the box. Erase to get one impact hit and an additional +1 damage when final rushing. All units get the check box except the slingers, the Unliving and the warhounds

This has two problems, IMO.  It spends a lot of the game dead -- you simply cannot use it unless you're charging.  On the Charge turn it may be too good -- I'm not sure.  If we compare it with Might, you're trading +1 attack for +1 hit, which is a pretty significant upgrade.  Put together it may not be unbalanced, but it doesn't look like it's going to lead to very interesting decisions.

Quote
Battle Lust:When making free attacks to routing units, SoK foot units get +3/0/0
 +1 MC when final rushing against routing units

I like this.  How about something that makes it either hard or impossible to resist hitting a routing unit?  You could say, "If X begins the turn able to final rush a routing unit, its orders change to Close with the nearest routing unit as its objective and those orders cannot be changed (or cost 2-3 command actions to change)."

Quote
So, here with the list and some guesses at their cost.

You've definitely earned a trip to the black box of point-costing; I'll come back (probably not today) with point values.  Actually, I'll make it definitely not today, so if you want to tweak any of the stats I'll put the revised ones in.

Quote

Tribal Warriors   

(5)/5/5  1/1, 5/4/2 Range 3.5", Courage 11, Move 3.5"   130 pts   Core
Ferocity
Javelins and sword
See umenzi Javelis for the rules

The green hits has already been mentioned.  One thing to consider is that toughness doesn't have to mean just armor.  Orcs with a 3-toughness are in comparable armor to Hawks with a 2, but the Orcs themselves are just tougher.  You could justify a toughness of 2 for your guys on the grounds that they're so full of adrenaline/fury/whathaveyou that they shrug off minor wounds.

Quote
Slingers
(4)5*/5*   1/1,   3/4/2 Range 7'', Courage   10, Move 5'' 95 pts Core
Sling (LOS range attack).
When this unit is final rushed, you may rout this unit without getting hit by free attacks. The unit that charged you moves full movent towards you. This unit may gain but does not provide pinching bonuses.

I think you almost certainly want to make these guys skirmishers using the rules we're developing for the Punic Wars, rather than add in a similar rule for them.

Quote
Warhounds[/b]
(7)/4*/4*  1/1, 4/4/2 Range N/A, Courage 10, Move 5"   70 pts
 +0/+1+1 when attacking the same unit with a unit of hunters.

Interesting.  So if they can get a 2s company they're a 5/5 and if they can pinch on the flank they're a 7/7!  Smiley



Quote
Animal afinity: target a cavalry unit on the board. Put a "panic" token on the unit. The controller of this unit must spend a command action to remove the panic token. Cavalry units with a panic token on them cannot do anything in their turn, not even fight back.

Does this amount to, "Target opponent with Cavalry in play loses a command action"?

Quote
Command cards:
Run like the wind   x1
All your foot units get +1 MC for this turn
   

I love cards that boost MC but I worry about cards that only boost MC.  I really hate for command cards to be dead or close to it for significant parts of the game, and sometimes everyone is engaged and the fight is going to be determined by whose line breaks, not by who is speedy when it does.  You could give this cycling and then it would be great.

Quote
Savage Warriors    x2
Play during your movement and command phase. Target engaged enemy unit that will get this attack gets -2 morale until the end of round

The wording is awkward; I think you can get away with, "Target engaged enemy unit" or, if you want to make sure that it's engaged with one of your units (rather than an ally or merc) you could say, "Choose one of your units.  All enemy units engaged with that unit," in which case it's powered up but still on-flavor.

The problem I have with cards like this is that they are always too good or else do nothing.  This card will either cause an enemy unit to fail a rout check that it would otherwise have made OR it will have created a burst of dramatic tension and done nothing.  Now, the same can be said for cards that only provide a courage boost, but those feel very different.  Maybe it's just that you're happy with the "nothing happened" result.  That said, this is at a power level that I can live with, so I'm happy to see it get tested.

Another thing to consider is that this card will be dead against the Undead.  It might make it too good, but how about we make it modal; you either give -2 to them or +2 to your own unit.

Quote
Breath of the Dragon x2
All ranged units get -2/0/-2 for your turn and your opponent's turn.

Flavor wise it's strange that Breath of the Dragon depowers ranged attacks.  I assume this has to be played during M&C?  In any case, this is another type of card I don't really like.  It's a huge card against ranged attacks, and having two of them in your deck encourages both players to cut down on or even to eliminate their ranged attackers.  (Imagine a mirror match where as many as four copies of this could come up -- if one guy has a couple of slingers and the other doesn't, that's going to be pretty big.)  If your opponent happens not to bring ranged units, this is simply a dead draw.  Worse, if an inexperienced player doesn't know what's in your CC deck and brings a stand-and-shoot army they're going to think it's really unfair that you have two cards that are essentially overpowered defensive cards that hit multiple units.

How about this instead?

Swirling Fog
Play during an attack, before your opponent rolls to hit.  (Parry)  If the attack is a ranged attack, (better than parry).


Quote
Savage roots     x2
Place this command card anywhere on the battlefield. It counts as rough terrain and anyone partially on it gets -1/-1/-1   

As noted in another faction, the spontaneous generation of terrain is REALLY powerful in some situations.  If I read this correctly, this card is insane -- it not only slows your enemy down but then gives them huge ongoing penalties?

Quote
Horn of Celtchar   x2
Play this card before you roll in the current courage phase. Discard x cards. X units pass their courage check   

Beautiful.  I love the design and the choices it invokes.

Quote
Spear of Lyr    x1
Target unit gets -2/-2 until end of turn   

Isn't this just completely over the curve?  It's like Force, but with +2 offensive skill thrown in on top, AND it applies to all attackers so you can make one command card have the strength of four?
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ZiNOS
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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2009, 03:39:54 pm »

@LazyJ

I think that the idea you had for the chariots is very nice so I would like to stick with it.

Concerning the too many green boxes, I really like this approach, but I think that I will change all the 2/1 stats to ½ since this is far more vulnerable. As you can see, I have no defense cards in the 10 faction specific cards. This army is supposed to be a little suicidal Smiley. I am trying to make a port for the actual sons of Kronos, so I am ok with the notion that the army will probably not be so much thought provoking but very straightforward.

After all, IMO, we do these fan created factions just for the fun of it and if possible, to come out with some interesting new mechanics that will be used in future, official factions. If we also get some credit like a play test or dev comment at the end of the rulebook of this faction, then this will be the best reward EVAH Wink.

No, I don’t have access to Chad’s magic formula; I just compared the stats with the Umenzi and tried to give similar point values.

@Chad

I changed all the units with 2/1 stats to 1/2 since this is easier to wound on the charge turn. (and it is better against the Elves Tongue).

Concerning the army ability, I am trying to make these people like a suicide black deck or something. You charge and everything goes off at that moment. I think that you come up with “official” point costs, and then this army will be perfect to play solo against.

I gave them impact hit and no extra dice in order to avoid the “problem” lazyj had with having to lower the original stats. An extra impact hit doesn’t affect anything stats wise and it is only available on the final rush so I think it is ok. If you think that the ability is too powerful, increase its cost. After all, playtest sessions of this army will be really quick and easy Wink.

I like your second army ability, very in flavor. And we will keep the extra dice.

Spear of Lyr: Yes it is very powerful….. But it is only one card in the deck, however maybe we change it to target unit gets (+0)+2/+2 until end of turn?

Breath of the Dragon, maybe we can combine two cards in one. +1 MC to all the units or -2/-2 to all archer units (including yours of course). Flavor wise, imagine a gigantic elemental dragon breathing all over the battlefield something that looks like a green fog and you end up like looking through night vision goggles.

The slingers must be skirmishers (actually I don’t know so much about Celtic slingers but Ancient Greek Slingers “peltastes” (well not exactly slingers, they just threw rocks to you, rocks are more prevalent in Greece than grass, and then outrun their opponents since they wore no armour) were probably the textbook definition of a skirmisher. I don’t know you rule about the skirmishers so maybe we could have a sneak peak at them? (hint, hint).

I really want to make a command card that affects the battlefield. If you think that this is too powerful, then we could make it that it will be cast only on open terrain. So it will maybe affect your units also. However, if you draw it once your units engaged the enemy, and then it is not very useful… I don’t know, maybe we should start a discussion with lazyj just to come with one or two good cards of this kind. However, the forum does not work for me…. I only get to read the posts most of the times and not being able to reply! ARRGH.

And the first ability of the Wyrd means that the other player has to expend a command card, but only if the Wyrd has line of sight to the cavalry unit.

The other two spells will be these (one spell per turn):

Invoke Frenzy. Range 15’’. Change the command of one friendly unit to close without any modifiers. (This will make the just rallied units to jump into the fray again).

Soothsaying. Take one wound. Force opponent to discard one command card (of your choice or at random or he chooses, I am not sure about this yet.)

The Stats of the Druid will be something like this:

Druid
(Lone figure, riding a stag)

(3)5/5* 2*/1 Range N/A, Morale 13, Movement 5’’, 4/2/1 Cavalry
Immune to Fear.
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lazyj
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2009, 03:56:18 pm »

Interesting. Glad you liked my chariots! They were the foundation I was trying to work around. Its cool to see the different looks we're pulling out here. I started with the "suicide charge" idea but I think I found a neat hook after Chad's comments. I'm close to Revision 2 but I kind of want to poke at it myself on the table before getting it online.

I went back and looked after Chad talked about that Horn of Celtchar - that is exactly what your faction (and mine!) needs. Great Command Card, and one I would love to steal!  Grin

And I'm trying to make my faction so that it could at least be *possibly* considered for "semi-official, nearly balanced" status someday. Mostly because work sucks recently and doing any kind of game development talk is way more exciting.

Are you figuring the spell casting is more like Umenzi? I'm torn because I think that will work fine but I'd love to see a different kind of magic system. I want to poke at the "cards as terrain" aspect a little more and see what we can do. I do like the Frenzy one - and its funny, the Soothsaying one about discarding opponent's stuff is a theme I'm working on too!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 04:01:29 pm by lazyj » Logged
lazyj
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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2009, 04:21:08 pm »

Oh, and Chad posted a version of the Skirmisher rules here: http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,710.msg6156.html#msg6156

Page 2, midway down.
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ZiNOS
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2009, 10:56:02 am »

I went back and looked after Chad talked about that Horn of Celtchar - that is exactly what your faction (and mine!) needs. Great Command Card, and one I would love to steal!  Grin

Be my guest Cheesy.

Are you figuring the spell casting is more like Umenzi? I'm torn because I think that will work fine but I'd love to see a different kind of magic system. I want to poke at the "cards as terrain" aspect a little more and see what we can do. I do like the Frenzy one - and its funny, the Soothsaying one about discarding opponent's stuff is a theme I'm working on too!

So, what do you think about the soothsaying? random discard or he chooses which card to discard? I am opting for the opponent to choose and most, one discard per turn (in case you get 2 Wyrds in your army.

Btw, can i use your chariots? Cheesy

no, i mean it.
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lazyj
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2009, 11:55:18 am »

Yes! Chariots for everyone!  Smiley

Soothsaying. I think you should test it as though the opponent gets to choose which one for now. If it doesn't seem worth it, you could switch. Here's what I was planning on that angle:

Unit: Seers
(3)3/3 3/1 2/2/2 No Range, Courage 11, Move 3.5"
Druidic Magic. During Movement and Command phase may spend 1 CA to draw a random Command Card from opponent’s hand and place it face up on the table - opponent may play it as normal but until then it remains visible to all players. On the same turn you reveal a card, you may spend an additional CA to discard it. Any Friendly unit within 7” of Seers may change one die to a “2” once per turn.

Chad pointed out that if they are completely worthless on the battlefield, then maybe they're not worth putting there. As in, you would "buy" them as a unit but they never take the field, similar to a Tavern character in Kingdoms. I am considering that, but would like to maybe power them up a bit and then make the opponent choose "is it worth going after this pansy unit or should I ignore them and try and crush his line instead?"
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ZiNOS
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2009, 01:09:35 pm »

Well, you will spend two CA just to discard a card from him..... and the unit is not very good on the battlefield.... i like the change of dice though.

Maybe you should give more abilities to this unit (more spells) and i think that marking of hitboxes instead of spending CA is the way to go.
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lazyj
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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2009, 01:25:03 pm »

Oooh... I like that thought of taking a hit to do the discard. If the seers want to hurt you, they have to hurt themselves...  Smiley very nice.

What I see as the Seer's value is the intelligence factor. You get a better idea of the cards available to your opponent. With one Seer over 5 turns, you could conceivably have most of their hand visible while hiding yours. If the rule is interpreted that you get to show a card for each Seer, then it wouldn't take very long at all to know exactly what was coming at you. You'd have a serious advantage - I'm just not sure how much of one.

I would think that some people would hate having their cards exposed and would attempt to kill the Seers as soon as possible. Others might decide that the advantage doesn't matter much (especially at a CA for each exposure) and would just ignore them and attempt to overwhelm the rest of the main line with point superiority.

Similar to the Fair Folk, I wanted to give the Seers a support role on the field. Hence the change die result piece - which was sort of tacked on. Seems a bit too much.
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