Final Rushing Flank & Pinching Morale test

[BubblePig]

Kidbrock, the "obvious" thing that you're missing is that Chad's comments were from 2008, two years before the 3.0 rulebook came out.  My quote was a transcription from the 3.0 rulebook (which was written by Niko and approved by Chad).

Chad was interpreting what were the final rush rules at the time (from rulebook 2.3 or 2.4), but the final rush rules have since changed.  People like me can consider the changes an improvement; people like Corey can despise them, but at the moment they are what they are.  (With the usual caveats that (a) people are always allowed to make home rules and (b) it is possible, though unlikely, that the relevant rules could change in the future.)

I would like to reiterate that the interpretation Kevin and I are saying is the correct one is based on the v3.0 rules and on a tournament ruling made by Niko after those rules were published. I would sincerely appreciate confirmation if this is correct, and if it is not then:

1. Tightening up the language to reflect this in the next rulebook.
2. Chad's stamp on that interpretation in the meantime, and failing that Niko's.

If people could just wait for Chad or Niko to weigh in on this I would really appreciate it.

[kidbrock9]

Of course.  That explains it.  I'm happy to wait, but the time difference thing pretty much solves it for me.  Its not like I'm going to any tournaments any time soon.  Thanks.

[Niko White]

That's correct.  Chad's 2008 ruling was correct at the time, but we changed it in the 3.0 rules, which is why that section implies that he's wrong.  He was right then, but is wrong now

The change is intentional and motivated by a couple of things, but the practical effect is that if you want your flanks to be safe, you can't just arrange so two's-company is legal, you either have to make sure the flank point is out of range, or guard your flank with some terrain or another unit.

[Hannibal]

The change is intentional and motivated by a couple of things, but the practical effect is that if you want your flanks to be safe, you can't just arrange so two's-company is legal, you either have to make sure the flank point is out of range, or guard your flank with some terrain or another unit.

Excellent, thanks Niko.

Can I ask, was this a change you made based on your play or at Chad's behest?

What I don't understand is why reward bad play and penalize good play.  If I have the slower unit (say 3.5") and I maneuver to keep the faster (say 7") enemy in front of me (along with the other enemy who's speed is ultimately irrelevant), why should the other player be rewarded for not using his fast unit well?  If he has the faster unit and he does not manage to get on my flank, why should he then be able to make a flank attack simply because the stat says he can run around the unit?  It seems that the player who did better shouldn't be screwed simply because the other guy happens to have a Move 7".

[Niko White]

I suggested the change and Chad OK'ed it, that's how most of the 3.0 changes came about.  Rob was of course responsible for all of the original rules, but had left the company by the time of 3.0, and both Chad and I agreed this one was a bit better.

As for your second point, either I don't understand it or maybe the overall context of this ruling isn't clear?  You can only get a flank if (and because) the other friendly unit is engaging the front.  The process works like this (and a nice overview table might be good in the new version of the rules):

-Decide which units have legal final rushes.  These units are the only ones that can final rush this turn.
-Resolve one of the rushes (or several at once in the case of two's-company) of your choice.
-Pick the next unit you want to rush with.  If circumstances have changed such that it no longer has a legal FR, don't move it yet.  If circumstances have changed such that it has a different legal FR, take that one.

So, in this example, you're moving your unit that will engage the front first, then recalculating the FR on the second unit, which can now hit the side, since the facing side is now not available for final rushes.

If you just have some fast dude, he can't charge a non-facing side over an open facing side, and remember you can't resolve normal movement before final rushes, so you can't move a footslogger up to get in the way and then hit the flank.

The result is that IMO you're not rewarding poor play, your creating situations in which it sometimes makes sense to uncap your fast movers a bit earlier than it used to (or at all).  The overall result is mostly a buff to guys with fast movement (which I'd argue they needed) but you still have to be intelligent about it - I've seen lots of players fail to set caps or set up indirect paths and blunder their way into getting defeated in detail.  This just lets cavalry pinch earlier than they used to be able to if the path is open.

Finally, while it is a lesser effect, this rule can also help slower moving guys, especially tanky ones like Dwarves.  It used to be that if you had a legal two's-company with two Dwarf heavy infantry guys, but you had an available flank if only one FR'ed that turn, you had to take direct control to avoid it.  Now you can save the CA and still be poised for the flank on the next turn.  You don't always want to do this, but if I've got say two Dwarf Axemen against a unit of Orc Swordsmen, I'm pretty confident that fight is going to go on long enough that it's worth delaying for a turn in order to get a pinch.

[Hannibal]

As for your second point, either I don't understand it or maybe the overall context of this ruling isn't clear?  You can only get a flank if (and because) the other friendly unit is engaging the front.  The process works like this (and a nice overview table might be good in the new version of the rules):

-Decide which units have legal final rushes.  These units are the only ones that can final rush this turn.
-Resolve one of the rushes (or several at once in the case of two's-company) of your choice.
-Pick the next unit you want to rush with.  If circumstances have changed such that it no longer has a legal FR, don't move it yet.  If circumstances have changed such that it has a different legal FR, take that one.

So, in this example, you're moving your unit that will engage the front first, then recalculating the FR on the second unit, which can now hit the side, since the facing side is now not available for final rushes.

No, this is all clear.  The example I've been using is Goblin Raiders and Wolf Riders, both in the front arc of a Tyrant Swordsman unit.  They're splitting the unit, so both in the front arc but the WRs have LOS of the side centerpoint.  The Orc player can use the rules to charge the Raiders first and then there's no space to charge that open side.  So the WRs can charge the flank and get a pinch.  And there's very little the Tyrant Player can do about this, especially on an open board (which is the default for this game).

Previously, the WR would have to actually maneuver and roll out to clearly get in the Tyrant's flank.  Now he doesn't.  He can simply have a longer line and get autopinches.

Finally, while it is a lesser effect, this rule can also help slower moving guys, especially tanky ones like Dwarves.  It used to be that if you had a legal two's-company with two Dwarf heavy infantry guys, but you had an available flank if only one FR'ed that turn, you had to take direct control to avoid it.  Now you can save the CA and still be poised for the flank on the next turn.  You don't always want to do this, but if I've got say two Dwarf Axemen against a unit of Orc Swordsmen, I'm pretty confident that fight is going to go on long enough that it's worth delaying for a turn in order to get a pinch.

Again, I see this as a bad thing.  If the Orc player maneuvered to keep both units in front to protect his flank, you shouldn't reward the Dwarf player by giving him the flank on the following turn.

I'm really saddened by this rule.  Like, really saddened.

[Niko White]

Ultimately you can react however you want, of course, but I'd encourage you to play with it a bit first.  It plays really cleanly, and it is certainly still possible to do the kind of maneuvering you want, I do it all the time.  It just requires you to hang back a bit and angle your unit around, rather than just face it a certain way.

[BubblePig]

Niko, Thank you for setting the record straight. 

[Chad_YMG]

I think Niko is understating his role in this rules change.  He had to persuade me pretty strongly about it. 

I shared some of the concerns about this that have been expressed here, but (IIRC) there were three reasons I ended up agreeing with Niko.

The first is that from a realism perspective I don't think it's clearly wrong at all.  If you're a unit of foot infantry and two units of cavalry are coming down on you (with at least part of their frontage extending well past your own frontage) on open terrain I think it's highly optimistic to assume that the best they can do is a two's company.

Second, in most cases you can still maneuver to prevent pinches -- it's just a lot harder.  I like this, as I think under the earlier rules it was a bit too easy for units to avoid pinching with relatively modest cost in CAs or loss of coordination with the line.

Third, and least important, I think cavalry is still generally a bit pricy so a change that makes them more dangerous precisely because of their speed and maneuverability was something I liked.

I'll echo what Niko said about trying out the new rule before assuming it's bad.  Flanks are still far from helpless provided you know what's possible.

[gull2112]

And to expand a bit on what the Chadmeister said, it is most beneficial for cav as many foot units could not go the distance; two's company allows for them to still attack at 2-1, albeit without the pinch bonus. Don't think of it as one unit waiting until the other has charged before charging the flank, although that is what technically happens on the gameboard, they may be rushing simultaneously with the intention of pinching. It isn't even necessarily by intentional arrangement (i.e. they don't have to have a pre rush pow-wow), it is just the way they naturally wrap around. I'm not saying this is what's happening, I'm saying this is a thoroughly plausible outcome.

[Zelc]

By the way, there's two ways you can prevent a pinch and force a Two's Company with the existing rules.

The first way works when you have a unit at the end of your line.  Simply tilt so that the outside unit can't see a flank.  The inside unit can see the flank, but can't FR it because your other unit blocks it.  Note you should stick the corner of the tilted unit past your other line unit so your opponent can't Two's Company the inside unit, or put your tilted unit within 1.25" of the enemy unit to trigger no turning back (not really pictured here).



The second way is a bit trickier in concept, but isn't too difficult in practice because you can declare exactly how you position your units when you direct control it.  The idea is to keep your unit's front as the facing side for both units.  Then, no matter what order your opponent Final Rushes, your front is the only legal final rush point or they can't see a side to final rush anymore.

It's easiest to illustrate when your opponent's units are touching each other at their corner nearest your unit.  Simply position your unit so your front center point is exactly between the two units:



Now no matter which Orc unit Final Rushes first, they can only get exactly half of their card onto the Hawk Swordsman card because they can't overlap with the friendly unit unless there's no choice.  That means half of the Hawk Swordsman's front is still showing, so the only legal Final Rush for the other unit is the Hawk Swordsman's front.

It's slightly trickier when the opponent's units aren't touching at the corner nearest your unit, but it's the same concept:



Now you have to position it so one enemy unit can't see a flank, and if that unit Final Rushes your front, it will fit exactly half its card against your card because the other unit blocks it.  In this case, the Wolfriders only see the front.  If the Wolfriders Final Rush first, then the Hawk Swordsman's front will still be the Final Rush side for the Orc Swordsman.  If the Orc Swordsman Final Rushes first, it'll fit more than half of its card onto the Hawk Swordsman, and then the Wolfriders can't Final Rush at all this turn.

It'd be tough if you had to measure this out exactly, but since you can declare exactly how to position your units when you direct control them, you don't have to do it with such exactitude in practice.

EDIT: I just realized there's no reason to be so exact on the last example.  You can move the Hawk Swordsman further to the right (still tilt them so the Wolfriders can't see the flank), so the only way the Wolfriders can final rush is by overlapping with the corner of the Orc Swordsman.  Then the only legal Final Rush for both units would be for both to Two's Company the front.