Final Rushing Flank & Pinching Morale test

[Rashak Mani]

Update October 2011:  Please note the date stamp on this thread.  Every post prior to reply #18 is from 2008, which was from before the new final rush rules from the 3.0 rulebook.  Thus, the back-and-forth between Niko and Chad is, at this point, irrelevant.-- Kevin 

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This came up yesterday...

1) Situation: A cavalry unit could Final Rush to the front or a bit further away the flank of a unit...
the elf ranger could only final rush the front.

My opponent thinks the "Two's Company" rule means I should final rush both too the front. I understand that I can chose which to final rush first and that the Ranger would occupy the front obliging the cavalry to hit the flank. Effectively pinching the unit.

Which is correct ? Am I obliged to final rush the front ?


2) Another player understood that a unit only does pinching morale test "when the were already engaged on another side". So if I two units hit two different sides of a unit on the same turn... that there is no morale test because he wasn't "already" engaged. I think its a silly interpretation of "rules lawyering" like the shock of being hit at the same time is less than sequential.

Which is correct ?

[carlkay58]

I am by no means an expert of this game but the way I would rule on these questions:

1) You choose who moves first, you can move one or more units at the same time. To me, the only time you get 'Two's Company' is if you have two units Final Rush together. If you choose only a single one at a time, then you have the choice of which one will fill the front as the first unit you Final Rush will go to the closest open side. If you choose the Ranger first, it is on the front and the cavalry would hit the flank. If you choose the cavalry, it hits the front and the Ranger is out of luck. If you choose both, then they get 'Two's Company' on the front.

2) The initial turn when the unit is pinched is when the test occurs. If the unit is rushed on both the front and the flank on the same turn, that is the turn that it tests.

[Niko White]

2) carlkay58 is correct about.  You always take the test if you get pinched.

For 1), you certainly can't pinch that turn.  The reason is that while you choose the order of final rushes, what the final rush will consist of (ie, who they are rushing and what side) is "locked in" at the start of the turn.  I'm not sure if you can choose to do them in such an order that the second unit is prevented from final rushing at all this turn or not; that one's never come up for me.

[carlkay58]

Ultiville, the original post stated that the cavalry could Final Rush the flank but that the front was closer. If you Final Rush the rangers to the front, the cavalry could still hit the flank in its Final Rush - so wouldn't that happen?

[Niko White]

Ultiville, the original post stated that the cavalry could Final Rush the flank but that the front was closer. If you Final Rush the rangers to the front, the cavalry could still hit the flank in its Final Rush - so wouldn't that happen?

Apologies -- yes, it would.  I was thinking of a different situation, it was late at night, mea culpa

Two's Company is really hard to force.  In order to force it  (the situation I was thinking about) you basically need to make sure that the unit can't fit to attack the flank.  (if you stagger out your guys leaving less than 2.5" between them, for example.)

[Rashak Mani]

Could you clear the "open path" rule for us too ?

In a open scenario if a Cavalry unit is right behind a friendly unit engaged with the enemy... can it hit its flank ? Because the "open path" talk about being able to draw a straight line to anywhere on the enemy unit. Even if it could move and get too the flank ?

Enemy
Friend
Cavalry

[Stormcrow]

Just to clarify Rashak Mani question (since I was the porr bastard getting pinched)

I had a Spearmen Unit on hold, waiting for doom. Rashak had the rangers far to my left but not far enough to keep them from final rushing my unit. (His rangers center point was within 5" of my center point'. My left flank was protected.)
His Knights were slightly in front of my spearmen (My unit's front center point and right center point was less than 5" away from the Knight's center point). My argument was, if you can't draw a straight line from his knight's center point to any point in my unit's flank (Open Path Rule), he couldn't pinch me. Though it wasn't the case, I believe that's the right intrepretation of the open path rule, thus, if the knight couldn't "see" my flank he would be forced to a two's company scenario or delaying the knights charge.

As to the first question
The rules clearly say:

Each unit that was already engaged on at least one side, which became engaged on one or more additional sides during the Movement and Command Phase this turn, must take a rout check.

If a unit wasn't engaged and happens to be final rushed by two pinching units in the same turn, he doesn't need to make a rout check. It wasn't already engaged.

[carlkay58]

Did the line from his center to your right flank center pass through your unit? If so, I don't think he could have Final Rushed you. If not, then he could have. At least that is how I would have ruled - although the rules say it is blocked only if traced through other units or LOS blocking terrain.

As to the pinch rout check - I think that when the first unit does its Final Rush you are now engaged and when the second unit Final Rushes this pinches the unit that is already engaged to its front and thus triggers the rout check.

[Stormcrow]

As to the pinch rout check - I think that when the first unit does its Final Rush you are now engaged and when the second unit Final Rushes this pinches the unit that is already engaged to its front and thus triggers the rout check.

It makes sense. Though if this is true, wouldn't the rules simply state that every time a unit becomes pinched it makes a rout check? If not in this case, when would a unit becomes pinched but wasn't already engaged before? Why would this rule exists after all?

[Chad_YMG]

1) Situation: A cavalry unit could Final Rush to the front or a bit further away the flank of a unit...
the elf ranger could only final rush the front.

My opponent thinks the "Two's Company" rule means I should final rush both too the front. I understand that I can chose which to final rush first and that the Ranger would occupy the front obliging the cavalry to hit the flank. Effectively pinching the unit.

First things first -- it doesn't matter, per se, which point is further from your unit but which side is the facing side.  Assuming that the front side is the facing side your opponent is correct -- you must either engage via Two's Company or spend a command action to keep your cavalry from engaging this turn so they can engage on the flank next turn.

The exception to this is if there isn't room for a Two's Company attack (due to other units in play or to impassable terrain).  In that case, the rules allow you to maximize engagements, so you would be able to pinch.

2) Another player understood that a unit only does pinching morale test "when the were already engaged on another side". So if I two units hit two different sides of a unit on the same turn... that there is no morale test because he wasn't "already" engaged. I think its a silly interpretation of "rules lawyering" like the shock of being hit at the same time is less than sequential.

Which is correct ?

A unit will take a rout check on any turn when it is engaged on at least one new side and is engaged on at least two sides.  Your friend is incorrect.

[Chad_YMG]

Some clarification on clearly visible and open path.

A unit must be clearly visible at the start of the turn.  That means you can draw a line from your front center point to any point on the enemy unit that doesn't go over your own unit, a friendly unit or LOS-blocking terrain.

The open path rule states that your unit's card has to be able to fit to the enemy, meaning there must be a path at least S wide that it could theoretically move through.

[Rashak Mani]

Chad... that is a wierd situation.

If I have more space (can do 2's-company) its worse for me than a situation where I have less space (can't do 2's-company).

Aren't final rushes executed in whatever order I desire ? Before regular moves of course.

[Rashak Mani]

Some clarification on clearly visible and open path.

A unit must be clearly visible at the start of the turn.  That means you can draw a line from your front center point to any point on the enemy unit that doesn't go over your own unit, a friendly unit or LOS-blocking terrain.

What if the line drawn from the center to any point on the enemy... is longer than the MC of the unit ? Center to center is MC... but visible is the corner further away from the enemy center point.

[Chad_YMG]

Chad... that is a wierd situation.

If I have more space (can do 2's-company) its worse for me than a situation where I have less space (can't do 2's-company).

Aren't final rushes executed in whatever order I desire ? Before regular moves of course.

I agree that it's strange, and yes you sometimes get a better result out of cramped conditions.  In many cases, however, the cramp is caused by your own units, in which case it makes more sense since in that case it would be harder for the enemy unit to adjust to an attempt to flank it.

To your question, yes you are allowed to do final rushes in whatever order you desire but the facing side rule still takes precedence.  This is part of our attempt to simulate simultaneous movement within an IGO-UGO system.

[Chad_YMG]

Some clarification on clearly visible and open path.

A unit must be clearly visible at the start of the turn.  That means you can draw a line from your front center point to any point on the enemy unit that doesn't go over your own unit, a friendly unit or LOS-blocking terrain.

What if the line drawn from the center to any point on the enemy... is longer than the MC of the unit ? Center to center is MC... but visible is the corner further away from the enemy center point.

In that case (if I've understood you correctly) the Final Rush is still legal.  The clearly visible rule simply checks whether the sergeant could see the enemy unit in time to say, "Go get them, men!"  The distance rule checks to see whether the units are close enough for the rush to happen.