Questions on a High Elf Battle Line.

[Rashak Mani]

Nice analysis... how would both fare againt 1/3 defense ? What about 1/4 ?

I also prefer the Mages 2/1 defense than Archers 1/2. How to evaluate the "get a command card" ability too ? Also more dice means a greater chance of getting lucky... something hard to put in math.

I'll email my math crunching friend and see what he thinks. Its certainly a compelling argument against mages.

[Niko White]

Nice analysis... how would both fare againt 1/3 defense ? What about 1/4 ?

I also prefer the Mages 2/1 defense than Archers 1/2. How to evaluate the "get a command card" ability too ? Also more dice means a greater chance of getting lucky... something hard to put in math.

I'll email my math crunching friend and see what he thinks. Its certainly a compelling argument against mages.

See, I think it's a purely contextual argumet.  The mages are fantastic in tons of cases, I love them to death.  But this particular army has a real lack of damage sources.  In that specific case, I've got to go with the archers.

The math, since you're interested, turns out to be that against anything with exactly 1 defense, the two units will do the same amount of damage (because 5 dice hitting on 4's is the same result as 4 dice hitting on 5's.)  Adding one die (via Attack Storm or the like) tilts the balance back in favor of the Archers, as does Might or even Strike.  Force obviously keeps them even since they still have the same number of dice vs. defense 1.  Only Accuracy benefits the mages more.

(Archers are also more damaging at longer ranges because that pushes most units back into the space where they have an edge: while archers and mages are equal without cards against a 1/x at close range, the archers do better at long range.)

Again, I don't think either is a bad unit, or overcosted.  It just depends on the needs of the army.  Some armies want a flexible damage or card engine, especially ones featuring bowriders where you often want to be able to make up the cards you lose to DCing the bowriders to mess with people.  But this specific army badly wants to break through lines, so I'd go with the damage in this specific case.

[Rashak Mani]

Since accuracy is a rare card it rarely helps battlemages... interesting. You've made a solid case for archer being better. I'm still so tempted by those extra 3-4 cards.

Maybe I've been playing hvy infantry armies so long that I've given up on archers in general. I really hate that 4 dice limit and weak defenses. I've always had atrocious bad luck employing archers... and against my hvy infantry archers have been less than stellar opponents.

 One reason I love bowriders is that you get a better protected archer + light cavalry all in one for a good price.

[carlkay58]

It all depends on how you play the game. If you like the card play (instead of using Precision) then the Battlemages are definitely better. I have played against several people who prefer the Precision ability and spend their command actions for that instead of cards.

[Niko White]

Since accuracy is a rare card it rarely helps battlemages... interesting. You've made a solid case for archer being better. I'm still so tempted by those extra 3-4 cards.

Maybe I've been playing hvy infantry armies so long that I've given up on archers in general. I really hate that 4 dice limit and weak defenses. I've always had atrocious bad luck employing archers... and against my hvy infantry archers have been less than stellar opponents.

 One reason I love bowriders is that you get a better protected archer + light cavalry all in one for a good price.

Well, archers in general in Battleground, except for the artillery pieces (and even sometimes them) are about focusing fire and incremental advantage.  They're very much more about letting you pile weak dice onto weak or close to breaking guys, hit people you normally couldn't who have low health (like Bowriders) or things like that.  This means people are often disappointed by them because they often don't seem all that impressive on their own.  The reason they're useful is that unlike in say Warhammer or Warmachine, the range of of archery isn't artificially restricted compared to the range of foot movement.  This means archery really is amazingly good at getting places the foot can't, either in terms of distance or just in terms of a wavering guy in the middle of a line who is blocked off by all his friends so you can't engage him.

And yeah, I wouldn't give up on Battlemages or anything; like I said, I run them far more often than I run archers as I tend to let the cavalry do most of the damage work in my High Elf armies, but they certainly have a place.  I was just hoping to point out that if you're counting on the ranged corps for damage over utility, they're the way to go.

One thing to remember in Battleground is that unless you expect to run into someone who chokes off your dice in a serious way (like Umenzi), +1 attack skill or strength is going to do better for you in the vast majority of cases than +1 die, at least in the case of base unit stats.  (On command cards it is a bit different but even so, Force and Accuracy are usually better than Might or Strike.)  It is easy to get excited about tons of dice, but quality dice usually win out.  (See also the Undead's Swarm of Rats unit.)

[Rashak Mani]

Don't worry Ultville... I won't be switching my Mages for archers just yet... 

Still like those extra cards too much.

As for precision... I think I've never bothered using it actually. I much prefer cards.

[Niko White]

Don't worry Ultville... I won't be switching my Mages for archers just yet... 

Still like those extra cards too much.

As for precision... I think I've never bothered using it actually. I much prefer cards.

  I love the mages too, I just also love how this game rewards you for thinking in the context of a list with so many of the armies.

And yeah, Precision isn't as flashy as many of the army abilities (honestly the direct control thing is really the major High Elf command action ability) but it is worth remembering you have it.  I mostly use it on Umenzi -- with their one toughness, it is a good counter to Faith Armor.  And of course there's always a good deal of joy in being able to say "I really want to play an attack card on this guy so I'll mark the box in case I don't draw an appropriate one."

[Rashak Mani]

By far the elven direct control is a major power. Especially with so many 5'+ move units. I rarely bother to micromanage cavalry... with elves its possible to do it and very well.

Precision... hhmm... s*cks.   

[carlkay58]

Precision is great when you hit on 2s or 3s and yet damage on 5s or 6s. In that case, the extra hit is likely an extra damage. Best at extreme or long range for ranged attacks against weak units. Other than that, it also acts as an additional attack die without the need for a card that grants that ability which can make those High Elf Knights even deadlier on their charge turn.

[Niko White]

Precision is great when you hit on 2s or 3s and yet damage on 5s or 6s. In that case, the extra hit is likely an extra damage. Best at extreme or long range for ranged attacks against weak units. Other than that, it also acts as an additional attack die without the need for a card that grants that ability which can make those High Elf Knights even deadlier on their charge turn.

Exactly.  It's tricky because the vast majority of High Elf units have six attack skill and the vast majority of heavy infantry defenders have three toughness so you're like, "wait, I'm going to give up the chance to improve my bad dice to...get another bad die?"  Like, against Orcs or Dwarves it looks so dumb.

But then sometimes you play against Ravenwood or Umenzi, and you've got these long range shots at like, 1's and 4's vs Stag Cavalry or some Umenzi line yahoos and you're like, "hey, this doesn't look so bad!"  Against opposing light or medium cavalry (Antonians, Wolf Riders, Stag Cav, Bowriders, etc) it is just fantasitc, because it takes so few successful hits to really hurt their effectiveness, and basically their only defense against missile fire is not being hit.

[Rashak Mani]

So besides having a high mobility army... their power is great for neutering enemy cavalry ! 

No wonder I love High Elves...