Questions on a High Elf Battle Line.

[Street]

New to the game,love it so far and I think I came up with a battle line that I will love to test out in a non-solitare game,but figured I would ask the Vet High Elf guys what they think 

2x Cygnets
2x High elf battle squad
1x Elder-blade Battle Squad
1x Battlemage
2x High elf Archers
1x High elf Scorpion
total points 1897.

line looks like this:

Cygnet..Battle Squad...Elder-Blade...Battle Squad...Cygnets

   Battlemage.....Archer.....Archer....Scorpions


First Line SO is Charge
Second line SO is R/Stay in line with the Scorpion


Tried this out on a couple of Solitare games but worked out nicely.
Also Leaves me an option to draw out 4 CC at start if needed.
Also just picked up the reinforcement pack today. 


Thanks for the review,


Street

[Niko White]

So, that's clearly a stand and shoot army.  Your front line is short (five guys) and pretty low quality compared to other people's lines at actually doing damage.  (Battlesquads are great tanks but those three dice really cap their damage.)  If you run that army setup, I think there's no doubt that your front line needs hold orders -- closing is just suicide.  Another advantage of holding is that you can space five guys out so that they cover the whole front of the deployment zone and the opponent will have to Two's Company on them, rather than being able to pinch.  Two's Company isn't great, but way better than getting pinched.

That all said -- this is a fine attempt at a High Elf stand and shoot army.  Tactically, you want to focus fire on people who will pinch you first, or on opening pinching opportunities.  I also worry that you've spent so many points on rear-rank units that you'll have trouble breaking through when the lines meet.  I'd perhaps tone down the missile contingent slightly (cut a Scorpion or Archers) and use the saved points to upgrade a few line units.  I think Knights might be a good call, or upgrading someone to an Elder Blade Swordsmen or a Spearmen unit.  (If you go for the Knights, you want to focus fire on the enemy in front of them so that they can hopefully charge through the poor chumps on the charge turn and then threaten to pinch and start rolling lines.)  I've found that in shooty armies, you still need one quality melee unit to hopefully really cement the breakthrough point and start rolling things up.  Archery is great at getting people into the yellow or red early, but if they don't break, you can still end up taking too long to finally kill them and get the pinch in if you've neglected to take anyone who hits very hard on the line.

Overall, I've not experimented extensively with High Elf stand and shoot, since their mobility is so much of an advantage for them.  If you find that list works for you, awesome, and please post about it, because as I said I haven't done a lot with it.  My suspicion, though, is that as you play the High Elves more, you'll find that their mobile units, especially Bowriders and Knights, are incredibly key.  I never leave home without some cavalry in my High Elf lists -- combined with the free maneuvers under direct control, they're just an incredible pain for the opponent to deal with.  This is part of the reason I suggest Knights as the breakthrough unit -- if things go oddly (for example if the opponent brings a heavy missile contingent as well) then they can start pulling annoying shenannigans that fill the opponent with hate, always good for a laugh.

[Street]

So, that's clearly a stand and shoot army.  Your front line is short (five guys) and pretty low quality compared to other people's lines at actually doing damage.  (Battlesquads are great tanks but those three dice really cap their damage.)  If you run that army setup, I think there's no doubt that your front line needs hold orders -- closing is just suicide.  Another advantage of holding is that you can space five guys out so that they cover the whole front of the deployment zone and the opponent will have to Two's Company on them, rather than being able to pinch.  Two's Company isn't great, but way better than getting pinched.

That all said -- this is a fine attempt at a High Elf stand and shoot army.  Tactically, you want to focus fire on people who will pinch you first, or on opening pinching opportunities.  I also worry that you've spent so many points on rear-rank units that you'll have trouble breaking through when the lines meet.  I'd perhaps tone down the missile contingent slightly (cut a Scorpion or Archers) and use the saved points to upgrade a few line units.  I think Knights might be a good call, or upgrading someone to an Elder Blade Swordsmen or a Spearmen unit.  (If you go for the Knights, you want to focus fire on the enemy in front of them so that they can hopefully charge through the poor chumps on the charge turn and then threaten to pinch and start rolling lines.)  I've found that in shooty armies, you still need one quality melee unit to hopefully really cement the breakthrough point and start rolling things up.  Archery is great at getting people into the yellow or red early, but if they don't break, you can still end up taking too long to finally kill them and get the pinch in if you've neglected to take anyone who hits very hard on the line.

Overall, I've not experimented extensively with High Elf stand and shoot, since their mobility is so much of an advantage for them.  If you find that list works for you, awesome, and please post about it, because as I said I haven't done a lot with it.  My suspicion, though, is that as you play the High Elves more, you'll find that their mobile units, especially Bowriders and Knights, are incredibly key.  I never leave home without some cavalry in my High Elf lists -- combined with the free maneuvers under direct control, they're just an incredible pain for the opponent to deal with.  This is part of the reason I suggest Knights as the breakthrough unit -- if things go oddly (for example if the opponent brings a heavy missile contingent as well) then they can start pulling annoying shenannigans that fill the opponent with hate, always good for a laugh.

I was looking at it more as a dynamic front line to tank the other guys front lines to rain death from above rather than just a stand and shoot.Also a question about the free moves with HE(I'm new remember LOL) so that basically means there are no MC penalties for ANY DC movement right?


Thanks for the reply


Street

[Niko White]

That's right -- no penalities for any number of reforms, move backwards, sideways, whatever.  It's an incredibly fun ability, especially combined with Sprint or Bowriders.  (It also means DC'ed High Elf archers/battlemages can run away from 3.5" or less move guys basically forever as long as they don't get trapped.)

I see what you mean about the dynamic thing, but it is still going to be really hard with that short line, and it combines pretty poorly with the Scorpions.  Remember they can't fire at engaged units, so if you close in, you'll cost yourself shots with them and they're your most powerful ranged unit.  If you want to go for more of the melee/ranged hybrid, I'd cut down on the ranged units and up the power of the lines -- perhaps go down to 2 battlemages as the ranged contingent.  Battlemages are awesome in an army like that because if for some reason the ranged plan isn't doing well, they can always go over to getting cards.

Bowriders are also an awesome choice if you want some ranged fire supporting an advance, because they're a very capable pinching unit in their own right.  Two of them supporting a closing battle line can also be very effective.

[Street]

Awsome thanks. ;DBy the way how effective is opening the battle line at first deployment and have bowriders or knights in the middle for example:




battle squad             battle squad                  battle squad                   

                  bowrider                   bowrider


and advance the bowriders at first movement up the middle to mess with your enemy then close ranks with the battlesquads and go to both flanks with the bowriders and realy give your enemy something to think about 



Thanks again for the help Master Elf player   



Street

[Street]

If you go for the Knights, you want to focus fire on the enemy in front of them so that they can hopefully charge through the poor chumps on the charge turn and then threaten to pinch and start rolling lines.) just reread your post and I guess the line up with a staggered front line with the bow riders in the middle to rush thru the opening might work with this well.Also one more question about focus firing all ranged units can on the same turn attack the same target.I dont have to attack only one solo target per range unit correct?Only the engaged units can pick a solo target even when pinched or twos company?

[Niko White]

With Bowriders, I find the best plan to learn to use them is usually to sweep around from the flanks.  If you start a Bowrider directly behind a unit on the extreme of one flank and put the bowrider on close (without a cap) you get a pretty cool effect: because you can always choose if you try to go around an obstacle (in this case the 3.5" move line unit in front of you) you can pick each turn if the Bowriders go 3.5" and just keep up or if they swing out the full 6" and start going around.  This lets you decide what turn they need to move to get the flank charge on the same turn their friend attacks from the front, a really powerful move.  If the opponent has a flank guard unit that will swing out -- no problem, just target it with the bowriders and never have them move around until it becomes clear if it will die/rout to their shooting first.  Once you've got a feel for the kinds of fights they can and can't win, you can start playing them differently, with plans that pretty much require you to direct control them every turn, which can be a hoot but a bit hard to figure out until you get a feel for which times you want them engaged and which times they want to run away.

Knights are a bit different: if you're using them with missile fire, line them up against whoever your target will be, cap their movement at whatever your line has (usually 3.5") and trust them + the archery to break through and start a disgusting massacre.  If you aren't using them in combination with archery, you can use them for a flanking maneuver a lot like the Bowriders in the above example.

As for your question, I'm not sure I 100% understand it but the golden rule to remember is: all units attack exactly one enemy unit in the combat phase.  Any unit can be attacked by as many enemy units as can legally throw dice at it.  If your unit is engaged, you can pick who it attacks (regardless of what orders it has.)  If the unit is a missile unit, it always attacks whoever it has as a target.  (If it has no target it attacks the nearest unit, but this should only happen if the target dies -- always give your missile units starting targets!  Even if the one you want to shoot is the nearest, why let your opponent mess with you?)   If you take direct control of a missile unit, you can choose who it shoots for that turn.

So usually the plan is to give all your missile units the same enemy target to try to cause breaks or deaths of units and open up holes in the line.  Due to the value of pinches, archery is best used to create gaps like this, in my experience, unless you have a really strange archers + bowriders only force that is designed to just avoid getting to grips with the enemy and wipe them out slowly at range.  This kind of thing can work in some cases and scenarios, but is a huge risk.

[Street]

Thanks for the info Ultiville you actually answered my question even though you didn't understand it 100%.  I keep forgetting that you always attack the nearest unit,depending on the standing orders or attack what you want with DC if you legally can.





Once again Thank you very much,



Street

[carlkay58]

Street, I had some time today so I played with your original Army list with another player with Orcs. I did change the orders for your front line units to Hold, although that could have been bad. We were playing a practice game for our campaign which uses a time limit of 45 minutes per battle (under normal circumstances - battles can be longer), the Advanced Rules (but not the Optional), and the Advanced Victory Conditions.

The Orc army had 3 Crazed Goblins, 2 Orc Crossbowmen, 4 Goblin Archers, and 2 Goblin Bombchuckers - so another army with the same philosophy. Your army was out-classed in ranged combat as you could not get into range of the Bombchuckers. I did play with my enemy's mind by moving around the targets he chose for his Bombchuckers - doing such as moving back out of range and other such fun - the Bombchuckers were the main basis of his attack and did the majority of the damage to the Elves. I did destroy all 3 Crazed Goblins before they closed, held one Bombchucker to only doing 2 damage the entire game while the other did 4. The rest of his units did a total of 3 hits across my units.

Points wise, the Orcs won - mostly because of the control of their side of the battlefield (200 pts). If I had given the front rank the Close orders that you had specified, that could have changed things to my favor, as it was, one additional turn probably would have seen the destruction of one of the Orc Crossbowmen and severe damage on the other one. In a longer game (to the destruction of one side) I really do not know how it would have gone because the Bombchuckers can be really deadly or really flop. The lack of damage was due mostly to great card play by myself (starting with four cards really helped that along) and some good use of terrain.

Overall, the army seemed to handle well. I would not mind trying it again with doing the first rank as Close orders. But one thing I would probably change is switch out the Ballista for another BattleMage or perhaps some mobile troops for better hitting. The Ballista is not very mobile, can't fire at engaged units, and does not buy you much - but those are just my opinions and I could be proved wrong.

[Street]

The Scorpion was there mainly as a heavy hitter.I for one do not like stand and shoot(never did in any game)I like to get in and dirty but rain death from above also.I found the close order on the front rank a better option just to basically tank the other guys and shoot them down.I am removing the scorpion and maybe another archer unit and trying to figure in bowriders for some more fun.Now if I can only get a line of spears in there for anti-cav charges

[Rashak Mani]

A suggestion... if you dislike giving Hold order to your frontline troops... you can give them a CLOSE order with a very limited movement. 1,25' for example. That means you get the Charge bonus and you still get to fire off more arrows before melee combat.

[Rashak Mani]

As for your battleline...

I think Battle Squad are the best wall units... saves zombies. Get rid of the cygnets.

Also.. Archers suck. Battle mages are much better and cost more or less the same. They have higher defense instead of toughness... and you get cards for 1-3 turns before ranged attacks are any good.

If its a stand and shoot army its fine... but I'd buy at least a chariot or bowrider. Its good for far flanking maneuver or to take care of enemy cavalry.

[Niko White]

See, IMO Chariots are way worse than Archers.  They're just too fragile!  Archers are awesome at clearing out really hard to hit targets like light cavalry, deadeye shots and precision can play Spirit Guidance against them too.

Battlemages are a great unit, but they're pretty much worse ranged attackers than the archers.  They have real issues hitting anything at range or if they moved -- if you end up kiting people, the Archers are awesome and hilarious.  (Sprint and Direct Control let them run away 5", and six accuracy lets them still hit things.)  Also they're elite so in this army he can't turn all the archers into battlemages since he's only allowed to run two.  But in general +1 die is also going to be less effective than +1 to hit; really the nicest thing about the battlemages is that against a heavy infantry foe they'll at least get you cards...but against heavy infantry, the Archers are just a Force/Might away from not sucking, whereas the Battlemages are close to beyond reasonable help.  (Force I guess makes them do ok at close range.)  High Elves also have way more ways to make up the dice than the accuracy -- virtually all your faction uniques add a die or more.

Again, taking care of enemy cavalry is definitely the job of archers.  Only something like Death Knights is really going to do that well because sure, you'll be rolling for 1's to hit something like Antonians...but you'll wound on 4's, and Precision lets you get that 2/3rds damage for every archer every turn.  Cavalry doesn't have a lot of health.

I agree on Cygnets vs. Battlesquads though; the 10 points is more than worth it.

[Rashak Mani]

Once battlelines meet... the Battlemages 5 dice do help. Especially if you can't afford to boost archers with cards or you do use cards because helping 5 die is better than helping 4 die. Many factions have cards that reduce -1 die. Making regular archers into 3 die blunders.

Plus naturally when moving you can opt to get more cards.

Cygnets unless they are being used for pinching on the flanks are always worse than a battle squad.

[Niko White]

So, Battlemages are great.  I love them and always try to fit some in to most of my High Elf armies.  But they're a strict side-grade to archers; they just do something totally different.  In this army, it looks to me like the job of the ranged corps is to do damage, and in almost every reasonable circumstance, the archers will do more.

Firing at a 2/2 line unit:

Battlemages 5 dice at 3's and 3's (1/2 success each round) = returns of 1 and 1/4 damage
Archers 4 dice at 4's and 3's (2/3rds and 1/2) = 1 and 1/3 damage (better)

If the enemy plays Parry in the same scenario:

Battlemages 4 dice at 2's and 3's = 2/3rds damage
Archers 3 dice at 3's and 3's = 3/4ths damage (better)

If the enemy plays whatever the toughness version of Parry is:

Battlemages 4 dice at 3's and 2's = 2/3rds damage
Archers 3 dice at 4's and 2's = 2/3rds damage (tie)

Ok, so worst case dice loss scenario: enemy plays Aspect of Fox:

Batlemages 3 dice at 3's and 3's = 3/4 damage
Archers 2 dice at 4's and 3's = 2/3 damage (worse)

So even if the enemy is costing you dice as well as debuffing your attack, the archers are still better.  In the very worst cases where you go down to essentially no dice they're worse off than the battlemages, but that's pretty far in an outlier circumstance.  (Also there's only one 2/2 vs shooting in Ravenwood and it kind of sucks -- if you were in the much more likely circumstance of shooting at 3/1 Ravenwood units the archers would be winning again at 5/6 damage over 2/3.)

Ok more dice equals better uses of command cards that don't add dice.  So let's see how things look shooting at a 2/2 line unit with Force and Accuracy.

Force:
Battlemages 5 dice at 3's and 5's = 2.083 damage
Archers 4 dice at 4's and 5's = 2.222 damage (better)

Accuracy:
Battlemages 5 dice at 5's and 3's = 2.083 damage
Archers 4 dice at 4's and 3's = 2 damage (worse)

In either of the cases where you use one that does +1 die and +1 to something else, the archers are ahead because they're boosting something that needs boosting, and getting a die which benefits them more because their dice are better.

Now, if you get to the point where you're almost certain to succeed or almost certain to fail (0/x or 5+/x defense) then the Battlemages have a slight edge as well, but both of those circumstances are really unusual.

So basically, you're right that the battlemages are a great unit, but they're behind in damage (yes, by not a lot of average points, but it is meaningful over the course of a battle) and I think that's priority number one in this particular army, because there aren't a lot of other things in there that are going to put the hurt on enemies.