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Author Topic: Brainstorming on rules changes that might tweak the Umenzi down a bit  (Read 608 times)
Chad_YMG
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« on: February 02, 2012, 12:07:38 pm »

As most of you know, Kevin has advocated disallowing healing of engaged units, either for the Umenzi specifically (an errata to their spell card) or in general (i.e. a general rule in the magic section of the rulebook).  I'm not convinced that any rules change is needed (it seems entirely possible to me that Umenzi are "merely" tier one and not a problem faction) but if a change is needed I'd prefer not to do it with healing.

So, here is the start to a brainstorming thread on rules changes that might be better.

Disallow units on "Follow" from being considered backup units.

Originally a backup unit had to be on Close.  At some point the suggestion was made to allow units on Follow to be backup units, on the grounds that if you wanted to set up a backup situation you might want to specify the unit to be backed up and giving Close with your own unit as an objective seemed odd.  The "problem" of course is that this upgraded the value of Shamans as speedbumps because now if you break through the line where the Shaman is following the Umenzi player can choose to replace.  If you break through on the Umenzi player's turn this means you have to fight through the Shaman instead of getting an immediate pinch.

From a rules perspective this would be a simple change.  Under the Close command we would allow an objective of a friendly unit and would say that in that circumstance the unit will move towards being in a backup position of the objective unit, with the objective remaining until changed with a command action, the unit gets engaged or the objective unit is destroyed.

I actually like this change regardless of whether the Umenzi are considered too good.  We allowed Follow to be a backup order with the idea that line units would use it when they were designated as backups, not with the thought that spellcasters would naturally be backup units.  The idea of the backup rule is that the two units are integrated and the second one is essentially "deep ranks" which flavorwise isn't what's going on with a spellcasting unit of shamans.

(For anyone who doesn't play the Umenzi, a shaman or high priest can't cast spells when it's on Close, so they would have to choose between being spellcasters or being backups.)

Limiting Setup Shenanigans

Sometimes one or both players engages in "shenanigans" that are essentially designed to work around the normal rules for starting the game.  For example, in our game Kevin gave his line orders to close but with location objectives that were behind them.  Literally the orders were, "OK, when the battle starts turn around, march a bit, then turn around again and march towards the enemy."  In practical terms what he was saying was, "You're all on Close but we want to delay the engagement so wait around for a few turns.  Oh, and you Chosen nudge forward a bit."  He essentially got to keep his line on Hold and then Sound the Call without spending any command actions to do so.

I have mixed feelings about this.  On the plus side it lets players come up with cool maneuvers, and even if they look goofy the net effect is generally not unreasonable.  (There was an argument a while back that we should allow delay modifiers to orders so a unit could be told, "Close but not for two turns.")  It's also something that can be vulnerable to a counter-maneuver, as we saw in that same battle.  I was able to use the time and commitment of his units to adjust my own line and get a good matchup for my Stag Cavalry.

On the minus side, I can see this being a turnoff for some players, particularly someone new to the system.  It slows things down, can feel like rules-lawyering or "legal cheating", and is otherwise kinda annoying.

There are a few ways to change it.  The simplest would be to limit the number of units that can be assigned an objective as part of their orders.  Even a limit of one per 500 points would likely make it impossible to delay an entire line, and a limit of one per 1000 points would still allow the typical "you shoot that guy" or "cavalry move to the flank and then chard" or "spearmen take that hill" options.  This wouldn't be so hard to justify from a flavor perspective -- real armies couldn't just dance around like their deployment zone was a giant disco.

As for why this is relevant to the Umenzi, I think they're the army most likely to abuse it.  An Umenzi army is unique in that it has only close-ranged attacks and yet often benefits the most from a delayed clash of the army.  They also typically outnumber their enemy and this sort of dancing around can be useful for a larger army that wants to adjust the way it will try to outflank a smaller one or to position backup units differently.

Other ideas?
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Kevin
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 01:54:24 pm »

A few quick comments.

- My proposal had been for Umenzi only.  Healer Mages, which cost double what Shamans cost, would be worthless if they couldn't heal engaged units.  

- Follow is a useful order for a regular backup unit which needs to stay behind an ally who might be swerving one way or another.  If Follow were to change, it would be nice to allow you to designate a friendly unit as an objective to a unit on "Close," which would allow for a "Stay behind them and then fight" order.

Update:  Just read it more carefully.  Your suggestion--follow not allowing for back up, but allowing Close to have a friendly target, would work, and I'd be cool with that.  Smiley

Of course, when a Umenzi unit is destroyed on the opponent's turn, even if Follow units don't back up, the Follow unit can get in the way.  So this wouldn't be all much of a downgrade.

- If the goal is to prevent "shenanigans," then I'd err on the side of doing less.  The ability to do cool maneuvers is one thing that makes the game so fun.   A limit of 4 units having Close targets in the deployment zone would be sufficient to prevent the entire-line-backs-up opening move.


----

I personally still prefer the unengaged-only healing.  It not only brings the Umenzi down a peg, but it makes the 30-point premium which you have to pay to upgrade from Shamans to High Priests a lot more worth it.  Oh well.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 04:20:01 pm by Kevin » Logged

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Hannibal
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 01:57:40 pm »

Quote
(it seems entirely possible to me that Umenzi are "merely" tier one and not a problem faction)

If I can talk about this for a second, I want to say that as a player I'm okay with the fact that some armies are just going to be better than others.  I think that is simply unavoidable in any rules system that tries to have a variety of armies.  Some armies are just going to mesh well with the ruleset when the theme of the army is translated into rules.  Bloodbowl is a game I play that has some real hardcore folks and which has had literally tens of thousands of games played (and tracked).  Their rules team has accepted that there will be power tiers of teams, and they track them to make sure they aren't too far out of whack.  For example, if a team wins 53% of the time it's a Tier 1 team, but they don't feel its so powerful as to be broken.  Similarly, a team that wins 45% is certainly a very weak team but not something where they feel that have to address.  While I can certainly quibble on the numbers (is 45% too low a win percentage? etc), I agree with the 'close enough' mentality.

This not to hand waive any and all problems, because if the problem is big enough it needs to be fixed.  No am I saying I agree or disagree with Kevin on whether the Umenzi are in that category of "big enough problem that it needs addressing."  I'm just saying for the record if an army wins, say, 53% of the time, that's close enough to balanced for me to be good enough.


Quote
Disallow units on "Follow" from being considered backup units.

From a rules perspective this would be a simple change.  Under the Close command we would allow an objective of a friendly unit and would say that in that circumstance the unit will move towards being in a backup position of the objective unit, with the objective remaining until changed with a command action, the unit gets engaged or the objective unit is destroyed.

I'm a little confused here, because this seems to be 2 proposals.  Am I correct in understanding that your two ideas are 1) limit backup to only Close and 2) include a "friendly" unit objective?  If so, I have to wonder if it's be simpler to just go with #1?  It seems to me that if you have a unit on Close behind your line, you can use the Indirect Path rule to get that unit into backup position pretty easily.  Usually if I want to put a unit behind another unit, I can use close with a terrain objective that is near the unit it is backing up to get it there.  That's not to say a "friendly unit" objective is a bad thing or that it'd hurt the game, I just don't know that its actually needed to solve that specific problem.  Although maybe it'd be cool to have period.

But I am in agreement on removing Follow from the qualifications for back up.  That's probably pretty good.


Quote
Limiting Setup Shenanigans

Sometimes one or both players engages in "shenanigans" that are essentially designed to work around the normal rules for starting the game.  For example, in our game Kevin gave his line orders to close but with location objectives that were behind them.  Literally the orders were, "OK, when the battle starts turn around, march a bit, then turn around again and march towards the enemy."  In practical terms what he was saying was, "You're all on Close but we want to delay the engagement so wait around for a few turns.  Oh, and you Chosen nudge forward a bit."  He essentially got to keep his line on Hold and then Sound the Call without spending any command actions to do so.

I have mixed feelings about this.  On the plus side it lets players come up with cool maneuvers, and even if they look goofy the net effect is generally not unreasonable.  (There was an argument a while back that we should allow delay modifiers to orders so a unit could be told, "Close but not for two turns.")  It's also something that can be vulnerable to a counter-maneuver, as we saw in that same battle.  I was able to use the time and commitment of his units to adjust my own line and get a good matchup for my Stag Cavalry.

On the minus side, I can see this being a turnoff for some players, particularly someone new to the system.  It slows things down, can feel like rules-lawyering or "legal cheating", and is otherwise kinda annoying.


I think limiting this sort of thing would be a bad idea on the whole, because 1) I don't think its actually all that strange, 2) I think it would hurt legitimate tactics, and 3) it's a rule that would affect everyone when you're really trying to limit 1 faction from egregious abuse.

First, I actually don't think its such a crazy, unheard of tactic.  I know BGFW isn't history, but there are historical examples of this happening.  For example, at Thermopylae the Spartans (and allies) didn't just stand at the mouth of the valley and get wailed on.  They engaged in feigned retreat in the early stages to lure the Persians into the narrow valley.  At which point they turned around and started the stabby-stabby.  Alexander at Gaugamela had his army basically do a sine-curve where one side curled back on itself while the other flank came (way) round the corner.

Again, BGFW ain't a history simulation, and so I'm not trying to say that.  I'm just saying that this notion that two armies just smashed into each other is a combination of Hollywood and Games Workshop (and a patronizing attitude that because medieval armies were untrained mobs all pre-industrial armies were all a bunch of untrained mobs), and frankly I think one of the selling points of this game is that it allows for very complex maneuvers.  In fact, most people when I give them a demo think that between the simplicity of the orders in the demo and the small size of the table that this is just a no-brainer 'everybody crashes into everybody' game.  That is, until after the demo when I explain to them how you can tweak and modify orders and get some very complex maneuvers out of the units in that same very small space.  In fact, just last night I was talking to some of the historical guys who were watching me play BGFW and when I was maneuvering one of the things I said is "in this game, like Field of Glory, you use the whole board, not just the length."

Second, I'm concerned that any tweaking will have negative impacts on legitimate uses of objectives.  For example, last night I was playing Ancient Feud and the units we nominated were almost exactly opposite of each other.  His was on the far left of his line and mine was in the middle (with 3 units between my grudge unit and the end of the line).  I compensated by giving my 3 units to the left of my feud unit enemy objectives so they would go to the right to engage an enemy unit one-unit-over from where they started.  Then, with a use of DC, I had my grudge unit go behind my line and run around to engage the other feuding unit on the far left flank.  And also I had my longbowmen target his unit of axemen as, when combined with my greatswords, I felt i could create a breakthrough there.

I don't think that is really any shenanigans.  Certainly the scenario forced it, but let's say due to deployment I wanted my 'feud' unit and the unit to its left to switch places, because the enemy opposite them were bad matchups.  Combine with enemy unit objectives and ranged fire objectives, I don't think its that's egregious at all.

I remember when I was playtesting Alexander, I was playing Carthage and due to his use of Poor Man's Foresight, I had a unit of elephants on my right flank while he had overloaded his right flank with Foot Companions.  I gave my elephants the orders to turned around and go all the way behind my line to a gap that I'd opened on the center-right.  Meanwhile, I gave orders to the other left units to slide sideways and hold (eventually DCing them to curl back) while the right most units slide right to open up a spot for the elephants before completing a wide right hook.  I gave terrain objective orders to at least 5-6 units to reorder my lines, and I don't think it was any shenanigans, but rather me trying to reorganize out of a bad deployment.

Third, as you said, this is mostly a concern for the Umenzi as in their case the spellcasting can make it more of a shenanigans thing.  My first thought was to require spells to have LOS like indirect fire weapons (so if they turn around, they can't cast spells), but I imagine I'd just have the spell casters hang way back to keep LOS and give the front rank units room to come back.  If that's the case, I'd say bite the bullet at errata the Umenzi spells.  Give Hex a 7" range and maybe Bless a 3.5" range.  Or maybe make the range of those spells equal to the Leadership Range of the Shamans/High Priests.  Or maybe some other solution, but I think it'd need to be tailored to the Umenzi (be it an errata or in the rulebook).
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elgin_j
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 02:28:14 pm »

Limiting Setup Shenanigans

Sometimes one or both players engages in "shenanigans" that are essentially designed to work around the normal rules for starting the game.  For example, in our game Kevin gave his line orders to close but with location objectives that were behind them.  Literally the orders were, "OK, when the battle starts turn around, march a bit, then turn around again and march towards the enemy."  In practical terms what he was saying was, "You're all on Close but we want to delay the engagement so wait around for a few turns.  Oh, and you Chosen nudge forward a bit."  He essentially got to keep his line on Hold and then Sound the Call without spending any command actions to do so.

I have mixed feelings about this.  On the plus side it lets players come up with cool maneuvers, and even if they look goofy the net effect is generally not unreasonable.  (There was an argument a while back that we should allow delay modifiers to orders so a unit could be told, "Close but not for two turns.")  It's also something that can be vulnerable to a counter-maneuver, as we saw in that same battle.  I was able to use the time and commitment of his units to adjust my own line and get a good matchup for my Stag Cavalry.

On the minus side, I can see this being a turnoff for some players, particularly someone new to the system.  It slows things down, can feel like rules-lawyering or "legal cheating", and is otherwise kinda annoying.

I've always felt (once I learned of the tactic here as it is not something I have ever utilised) that this was indeed very gamey and pretty lame overall.  The one way I could think of doing it would mean a rewrite of the entire system - that is, enshrining the Breaking Point concept as part of the base game and giving points to whichever army controls terrain objective.  That would force players to move out of their deployment zone else they will quickly lose control of the battlefield and need only lose a few units to lose the game.  I'm not sure that this is necessarily the way to go but perhaps any solution should be along the lines of penalizing a player that utilises such a tactic, rather than simply banning it outright, as that would encourage a more immediately aggressive style of play without reducing the range of options a player ultimately has.
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Kevin
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2012, 04:09:20 pm »

Quote
I'm a little confused here, because this seems to be 2 proposals.  Am I correct in understanding that your two ideas are 1) limit backup to only Close and 2) include a "friendly" unit objective?  If so, I have to wonder if it's be simpler to just go with #1?  It seems to me that if you have a unit on Close behind your line, you can use the Indirect Path rule to get that unit into backup position pretty easily.  Usually if I want to put a unit behind another unit, I can use close with a terrain objective that is near the unit it is backing up to get it there.  

This works so long as units on opposite sides beeline at each other.  But in the less common and more interesting case that the unit in front has to turn in order to go after its opponent, the unit behind ends up in the wrong place (or you waste a command action).


Quote
I think limiting this sort of thing would be a bad idea on the whole, because 1) I don't think its actually all that strange, 2) I think it would hurt legitimate tactics, and 3) it's a rule that would affect everyone when you're really trying to limit 1 faction from egregious abuse.

Even the very small limit I proposed makes me a bit itchy.


Quote
My first thought was to require spells to have LOS like indirect fire weapons (so if they turn around, they can't cast spells), but I imagine I'd just have the spell casters hang way back to keep LOS and give the front rank units room to come back.

Yeah, that's exactly how I do it, as Chad can confirm.

-------------------------


Quote
I've always felt (once I learned of the tactic here as it is not something I have ever utilised) that this was indeed very gamey and pretty lame overall.  The one way I could think of doing it would mean a rewrite of the entire system - that is, enshrining the Breaking Point concept as part of the base game and giving points to whichever army controls terrain objective.  That would force players to move out of their deployment zone else they will quickly lose control of the battlefield and need only lose a few units to lose the game.  I'm not sure that this is necessarily the way to go but perhaps any solution should be along the lines of penalizing a player that utilises such a tactic, rather than simply banning it outright, as that would encourage a more immediately aggressive style of play without reducing the range of options a player ultimately has.

I think you mean Ticking Clock, not Breaking Point.  But that doesn't really work the way you want it to:  having the Umenzi move back & forward still gets you into the middle of the field, with plenty of time for fighting, before the time runs out.  

The time not to do it is when there's valuable terrain which gives bonuses.  e.g. Hills.  But mandating terrain doesn't strike me as a good idea.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 04:18:32 pm by Kevin » Logged

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Hannibal
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2012, 04:51:25 pm »

Another idea to limit the Bless/Hex spam would be just to limit the number of units that can be blessed/hexed.  Write something into the rules that you can have X active bless/curses on units per spellcaster.  So if you want it so that the spell casters cast about 2-3 spells each before the lines crash together, you just have the rules say you can 3 active blesses/curses per shaman or high priest.

Obviously this doesn't address the concern Chad raised on Umenzi running backwards to outflank the other guy, but I really have less of a concern about that.  Usually the Poor Man's Foresight I get with Umenzi means I usually have the matchup I want somewhere and so I don't really want to give him extra time to reorganize his lines.  For example, what happened in Kevin & Chad's game. I think Kevin may have actually helped him out by backing up and had he pressed forward, those Stags might very well have been caught up in traffic trying to reorganize.


Edit:  I just realize something.  Should this belong in the Rules Team forum?  I mean, I'm more than happy to spout off like that crazy guy who keeps writing into the editorial page.  Certainly this is Chad's forum so if he wants to post porn in the Hill 218 section, its his frakking prerogative, I just don't want my naturally chatty nature to step on toes or cause problems. 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 04:56:54 pm by Hannibal » Logged

Kevin
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2012, 05:58:52 pm »

One big advantage of the initial backward move, apart from blessing and hexing, is that it buys time for the MC 3.5" infantry to fan out to the sides.  Most armies can accomplish this by starting units in the back row, but this becomes less practical with Umenzi as they typically have Shamans in the rear.

I suppose a bless/hex cap could work, though it would nerf the ability of the Umenzi to punish an opponent who hangs back.  And it could prove more-than-slightly annoying and your army moves in vs. an opponent who has an archer or two.
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elgin_j
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 01:43:05 pm »

I think you mean Ticking Clock, not Breaking Point.  But that doesn't really work the way you want it to:  having the Umenzi move back & forward still gets you into the middle of the field, with plenty of time for fighting, before the time runs out.  

The time not to do it is when there's valuable terrain which gives bonuses.  e.g. Hills.  But mandating terrain doesn't strike me as a good idea.

I wasn't very clear so I'll clarify.  What I meant was Breaking Point but in a roundabout way.  Rather than having to achieve a certain points threshold by destroying units if you combined destroyed units with bonuses for battlefield advantage then it would encourage players to immediately to get out of their deployment zone and scrap.  If you've ever played the Close Combat video game series this would be very similar but with the addition of destroyed units for a winning tally.

I don't say this is the way to go but I do think we shouldn't be banning anything, rather we should be manipulating the game to encourage certain positive play styles such as aggression straight out of the gate.
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 09:14:39 pm »

If you wanted to go more "all in" with terrain you could count some terrain objective as the key thing and controlling it at game end (total warfare) is all that matters. Then you could further define it by the size of the remaining victor's army. With Kingdom's maps you would get quite a variety. I know there are scenarios that include objectives in the VP total, but this is an all or nothing objective.
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Kevin
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2012, 12:03:45 am »

The more I think about it, the more I like the backup rules revision proposed by Chad.  It would get the Umenzi closer (possibly close enough) to balanced, and would otherwise be painless, and isn't a faction-specific rule.
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2012, 05:45:34 am »

Having reread this thread I like Chad's proposal because it clearly delineates the difference between following and backing up, something I wasn't really clear on, so has the advantage of clearing up a point of rules that may not have been understood by many folks.

To sum up:
A unit that is Backing Up will immediately occupy the position occupied by the unit it is backing up if that unit is eliminated.

A unit that is Following will attempt to remain in base to base contact with the unit it is following within normal rules mechanics.

Am I clear on this? Anybody?

Prior to reading this thread if somebody would have asked me what the difference between Backing Up and Following was I would have said, Well...its a...well, you see if you're playing Umenzi and...Uhh... Tongue
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Kevin
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2012, 09:08:19 am »

Quote
To sum up:
A unit that is Backing Up will immediately occupy the position occupied by the unit it is backing up if that unit is eliminated.

A unit that is Following will attempt to remain in base to base contact with the unit it is following within normal rules mechanics.

Am I clear on this? Anybody?

Yeah, you got it!  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2012, 11:28:56 am »

If I can talk about this for a second, I want to say that as a player I'm okay with the fact that some armies are just going to be better than others.

I think we're all in agreement here.  There's simply no way to prevent some factions from being better than others; what we want is to make sure we avoid a broken situation where, for example, all the competitive players choose from one or two armies because anything else means losing the tournament.  I don't think the Umenzi are that good (and the choices of competitive players doesn't suggest that they are), but I respect Kevin's suspicion that they are.

Quote
I'm a little confused here, because this seems to be 2 proposals.  Am I correct in understanding that your two ideas are 1) limit backup to only Close and 2) include a "friendly" unit objective?

IIRC the reason we allowed a unit on Follow to be considered a backup was because we wanted you to be able to tell a unit, "Go back up that other unit over there," i.e. to use an objective modifier to its SO.  I still think that's a good thing -- it doesn't come up a ton of the time, but I can certainly see putting a designated backup unit at the rear center of your line and then telling it who to back up once you've seen how your opponent has deployed his forces.  You can still try to get that with a location objective but that is both fiddly and artificial.  So my thought is that IF we limit backup to units on Close we should also allow a friendly unit objective.

Quote
I think limiting this sort of thing would be a bad idea on the whole, because 1) I don't think its actually all that strange, 2) I think it would hurt legitimate tactics, and 3) it's a rule that would affect everyone when you're really trying to limit 1 faction from egregious abuse.

First, I actually don't think its such a crazy, unheard of tactic.  I know BGFW isn't history, but there are historical examples of this happening.  For example, at Thermopylae the Spartans (and allies) didn't just stand at the mouth of the valley and get wailed on.  They engaged in feigned retreat in the early stages to lure the Persians into the narrow valley.  At which point they turned around and started the stabby-stabby.  Alexander at Gaugamela had his army basically do a sine-curve where one side curled back on itself while the other flank came (way) round the corner.

True, but I think there were limits to what you could do.  That said, I don't think it's clear that this is a problem, and I agree that one of the coolest things about Battleground is the scope for complex maneuvers.

Quote
Second, I'm concerned that any tweaking will have negative impacts on legitimate uses of objectives.


Yeah, this is a big concern for me, too.
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« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2012, 04:54:18 pm »

One thing to keep in mind, and this is a good thing, is that while backing up a unit is useful in certain circumstances and a very cool option to have in your BG arsenal, it really comes into its own for Rome. I make this point to allow for the fact that, to be really effective overall, it takes special training and organization. Most factions could do it if thay really want or need to, but Rome is dedicated to doing it right.*

*More elegant game design kudos.
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« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2012, 05:19:36 pm »

By the way, if we are going to allow Close with a location target to simulate backing up, I wouldn't mind if it were phrased this way:

Quote
If a unit is given the order of close with a friendly unit as a modifier, it attempts to move into any position where it is backing up that unit.

"Follow" intersects with the current back up rule in a somehwat annoying way:  under the current rule it's easy to back up two units, but if a unit has orders of "Follow" it will always try to line up center points and thereby only back up one.  This often forces you to waste a command action for the unit to do something you always wanted it to do (back up two units).  Building more flexibility into the rule would make backup units a more practical endeavor, as they could position themselves to back up two units for free.
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