4000 point old school grinder with pinching bonus test

[RushAss]

Another Friday night, another bloodbath.  Sure we’re all the closest of friends, but we still wanted to kill each other!  We had only 3 of us this night, so we did the old team-up-on-the-big-guy thing.  4000 points per side.  Die rolls determined Chris would control the 4000 point army while Brook and I would get 2000 points each.  Deployment zones where lengthened to allow for 10 units across.  We where feeling particularly old school for this game, so we all took old school factions.  We also decided to play with terrain after going who knows how long without using any.  And it showed because we totally hosed on how forests effect ranged fire.  We neglected to remember that more than 2.5’’ of forest blocks line of sight.  This would have seriously effected one of Chris’ Giant Catapults for the entire game, as well as some very critical Longbowmen attacks later in the game.  It all evened out in the end, but it’s still annoying that I totally missed that part of the terrain effects until looking at the pictures days after the game was played.

Brook had remarked earlier in the week that he thought the pinching bonus was too strong, so we agreed to try out a different, less drastic form of the rule.  What we settled on was this:  instead of receiving a +1/+1 bonus for pinching, pinching units would receive a (+1)+0/+0 bonus instead.  We also played with the new disrupted rule, but I don’t think it ever actually came up this game.

Set Up



Undead Controlled by Chris
Top to bottom:
Death Knights with Skeleton Cavalry behind them on an angle
Skeleton Trolls
Ghoul Pack with another Ghoul Pack behind them
1 Lonely Ghoul Pack
Giant Catapult behind the forest
Zombies backed by more Zombies
Zombies backed by… you guessed it!  More Zombies
Skeleton Trolls with a Giant Catapult behind them (builds confidence!)
Death Knights with Skeleton Cavalry behind them on an angle

In a weird way, this deployment is almost symmetrical.  Brook’s side would be getting the faster, harder hitting Ghoul Packs while I would be getting the slower, tankier Zombies.  And oh yeah, another Giant Catapult.

Hawkshold Controlled by Brook (see how proud he is of them?), Dwarves controlled by yours truly
Top to bottom:
2 Milita with Antonians behind them (Horsies make everyone feel better)
Greatswordsmen backed up by Militia
Greatswordsmen with Longbowmen behind them
Greatswordsmen with Longbowmen behind them
Dwarven Militia
Dwarven Axemen
Militia (Hawkhold Variety)
Dwarven Axemen with a Balista behind them
Dwarven Battleaxemen
Dwarven Spearmen with Antonians behind them

I was rather pleased with this arrangement because we a true Synergy going on with all of our units.  Sure we had some bad match ups on the fringes, but we where very strong in the center since Chris had committed so many of his points to his flanks.  I also liked the match up of Antonians vs. Skeleton Cavalry.  We rationalized placing Dwarven units in the middle as being a good thing because we could sprint them if needed and they would face no penalty once they reached the hill.

Standing orders

Both of Chris’ Giant Catapults where set to a generic range standing order, but that would have worked out fine for him based upon the units that would be closest.  Except for the little detail of that hill in the middle of the map.  So that GC would be spending a good deal of time firing at the Hawk Militia sandwiched between my Dwarven Axemen instead.  The rest of Chris’ units where set on a close standing order

All of our line units had a generic close standing order as well with the exception of my Spearmen which had a hold objective which is the little blue bead you see in front of the Death Knights.  The Knights could either ram the Spearmen or burn command actions, both of which where fine by me.  My Balista was targeting the Skeleton Trolls across from it while both of Brook’s Longbowmen where targeting the Skeleton Trolls over on his side of the map.  Our entire line was capped at 2.5’’.

Early Turns



Brook applied Bravery to all 3 of his Militia units and I plopped a Rune on my Spearmen and Battleaxemen.  I also Sprinted the Axemen and Militia (Dwarven variety) the first few turns to keep them with the rest of the line.  Line units moved in the expected manner as the Giant Catapults trundled up to get a better firing solution.  They where largely ineffective early on, scoring only a point of damage on each of their respective targets on their first 2 turns.  Brook’s Longbowmen where not doing well at all, but the Ballista made up for it by inflicting 3-4 or so damage on the Skeleton Trolls before they engaged.

The Death Knights up top put the Militia into the yellow, but they held on the charge turn and I think they even inflicted a point of damage.  Go Militia!  The Skeleton Trolls up top actually did decent damage to the Greatswordsmen.  A Ghoul Pack got wholloped.  My Axemen did a few points of their own to the Skeleton Troll opponents.  The Spearmen stopped right in front of the Death Knights, ready to receive the charge.


Mid Turns



We’ll start from the top.  As I said before, I felt good about Antonians going up against Skeleton Cavalry.  But since I had been sprinting my guys in the middle, I had not drawn many command cards.  My Antonians did a lame 3 points to the Skeli Cav, which did the same back in return.  What do you know?  The Antonians routed and died.  So much for me feeling good about that match up.  The Death Knights where able to polish off the Hawk Militia and the back up rule was invoked so that a fresh Militia was plugged into place.  Say what you want about Hawk Militia, they will hang in there nicely for a 115 point unit if you make them brave.  The Longbowmen finally started getting traction and where able to blow up the Skeleton Trolls with help from the Greatswordsmen.  Ghoul Packs continued to get beaten up. 

There was some movement funniness that had my Dwarven Militia boxed behind my Axemen and some Greatswordsmen, but I wasn’t crying about that.  At least I was no longer sprinting them.  The wall of Zombies was finally engaged by Axemen and Hawk Milita and this would prove to the grinding grounds for this game.  My Battle Axemen went into the red from the combination of Giant Catapult bombardment and Skeleton Troll beatdown and routed.  More damage was inflicted on the return attack and the second failed courage check signaled the end of them.  The Death Knights rammed into my Spearmen, which managed to inflict 3 damage on the Death Knights, but took 4 in return and you can probably guess the outcome: failed courage check (please see my avatar).  My Antonians did well on the charge turn, only taking 1 damage while inflicting 3 or 4 on their Skeleton Cavalry opponents.  However, Chris played Arms of the Fallen on the next turn and while the Skeli Cavalry where vanquished, they managed to inflict 4(!) wounds on my Antonians, which promptly routed.  Having failed a total of 5 out of my 7 total courage checks so far, I began freaking out.  But Brook pointed out to me that this particular failure was a good thing since the Antonians would have been ploughed by the Death Knights if they had held since Chris’ turn was about to begin.  I calmed down.



Starting from the top again, Skeleton Cavalry are starting to whip around to plaque the back end and a Militia unit is direct controlled to give them a speed bump.  The Death Knights are pinched by Greatswordsmen.  Now remember that we where using a modified pinch rule and these Greatswordsmen where already in the red, so they are only getting 4 dice at a 7/7 on the charge turn, then (4) 7/6 the rest of the way.  Plus the Militia are only getting an extra attack die, so the Knights hold.  Between the Longbowmen and Greatswordsmen, the Ghoul Packs are no more.  Apparently a giant, half eaten muffin-top has landed on the battlefield, but we’ll ignore that for now.  Dwarven Axemen pinch Zombies, but this fight takes FOREVER to resolve due to the weakening of the pinch bonus and lousy attack dice.  The Balista had 2 turns of clean shooting at the Skeleton Trolls and needed only do 4 damage to kill them.  1 Turn I even used a might card, which netted me 3 damage.  Sadly, the Balista completely whiffed on the other turn so now the artillery crew found themselves facing a very pissed off Troll – minus the fat.  I played a Rune of Power card hoping to get that last point of damage, but it was not to be.  Hilarity ensued as my Balista actually routed that turn despite the courage bonus from that card.  To balance this disaster out, the Death Knights where reanimated (now up to 1 green box) and rammed back into my Spearmen.  While the Spearmen died messily, they did manage to inflict a stray point of damage and would you know it?  The Death Knights routed, so the Antonians would live on!   

Endgame



This gets a little tough to remember because we played on for a couple of turns after the final picture was taken.  Up top, the Hawk Militia pulled out a victory by actually taking the Skeli Cavalry with them.  The Death Knights killed the Greatswordsmen pinching them and eventually the Militia as well, but they where then killed by one of the Longbowmen.  Brook had his other Longbowmen unit turn and start shooting (illegally, as it turns out) the Skeleton Trolls that where tormenting the Balista crew and they did the necessary point of damage to finish them off.  The Giant Catapult in the middle was now firing on the Dwarven Axemen closest to them (illegally, as it turns out) that where pinching Zombies.  The first row of Zombies had finally fallen and we commenced work on the next row.  All of the Ghoul packs where gone and a combination of Greatswordsmen and Dwarven Militia commenced a slow crawl to engage the center-most Giant Catapult.  I had my Antonians cross in front of the Balista (reformed now in the red!) to afford them another turn of life before being run down by the Death Knights.  I remember the last 4 Undead units on the map where both Death Knights and both Giant Catapults.  Chris surrendered when the Death Knights on the Hawk front perished.  At this point the Giant Catapult in the center of the map was 1 turn away from being pinched by Dwarven Militia and 2 Greatswordsmen. 

Final Thoughts 

The integration of the Hawk and Dwarven forces worked out well for us.  It felt like one big cohesive force working in tandem, not 2 separate factions plopped down on the map that happened to be fighting the same enemy.

Oddly enough Wave of Terror was never played even though Chris made it almost all the way through his command deck.  It turns out that he didn’t draw them until late in the game where there where very few units still engaged.  Lucky break for us.

Chris reanimated each Death Knight at least once, as well as each Skeleton Troll.  He also did this once or twice to a couple of Zombie units, but I can’t recall which ones.

I could be wrong about the targeting of one of the Longbowmen early in the game.  One of them was most definitely firing at a Skeleton Troll, but the other one *may* have been firing on a Ghoul Pack.  Brook may be able to clear that up.

The Giant Catapults didn’t do as much damage in this game as they should have.  Tough break for Chris there.

While firing at the Skeleton Trolls when they where engaged, I subtracted a die roll from my Balista.  I don’t like that all other ranged units get a (-1) -0/-0 penalty for firing into an engagement, but Balistae and Scorpions don’t.  That’s a tiny rules fix that I’d like to see made.

We didn’t like the tweak we made to the pinching bonus.  1 extra attack die straight up apparently is not enough of a bonus.

Heroes of the Game

Undead
You’ve got to go with The Death Knights on the Hawk front that took out 2 Hawk Militia and finished off a Greatswordsmen unit.  They took up an awful lot of resources.  Honorable mention goes to the Skeleton Cavalry on the same side that took out my Antonians and then died while taking out a Hawk Militia unit.

Hawkshold
I can’t really single out any one unit here.  I will say that I don’t think any Hawk units performed poorly with the exception of the Longbowmen in the early game.

Dwarves
Again, nobody really stood out.  Nobody underperformed combat-wise, but the slew of courage failures sure was embarrassing.

[Niko White]

I think the pinch bonus is honestly fine, and should be super important, but I think if someone forced me to houserule it I'd probably make it a free Strike, ie (+1) +1/+0, primarily in an attempt to make toughness a bit better.

[Kevin]

Fun report!

I would so be in love with Antonians if only they had a third green box.  As is, there's always a pretty decent chance that they'll go into the yellow and rout on the first turn of combat.


What Niko said on the pinch bonuses, though even then I'd be hesistant to touch them, less x/4 units become downright invicible..

While firing at the Skeleton Trolls when they where engaged, I subtracted a die roll from my Balista.  I don’t like that all other ranged units get a (-1) -0/-0 penalty for firing into an engagement, but Balistae and Scorpions don’t.  That’s a tiny rules fix that I’d like to see made.

At the Championship tourmanet nobody is penalized for firing into an engagement (and that's balanced out by unengaged units becoming "Disrupted" rather than fleeing when they blow a rout check).  We'll see how that pair of rules is received.

------------

[Niko White]

BTW despite usually being resistant to rules changes I like the Disrupted/no engaged penalty thing a lot, as does Seth and the rest of the Pandemonium crew.

Kevin - we've got regular play at Pandemonium starting up on Tuesdays if you ever want to drop by, Seth is doing demos and trying to build the play group.

[Kevin]

Kevin - we've got regular play at Pandemonium starting up on Tuesdays if you ever want to drop by, Seth is doing demos and trying to build the play group.

Sweet!  What time do you guys usually start playing?  I teach until close to 7 across the river.

[gull2112]

I wouldn't touch the pinch bonuses, too much nerfing going on around here.

Besides, there is precedence. In DBA, which was designed by an expert on medieval warfare, Prof M.A.R. Barker, hitting an opponent on multiple sides was a very effective and hotly pursued tactic. In an otherwise "dry" system, though very playable, it was one tactic that really kicked butt.

BTW - sweet battle report!

[gull2112]

Did you guys play with the Sprint special rule (sprint is sticky til engaged)?

[RushAss]

Did you guys play with the Sprint special rule (sprint is sticky til engaged)?

Nope, too much nerfing going on already   I'm one of the few that thinks Dwarves are fine the way they are.  We where just more curious as to what would happen if the pinching bonus was altered.  As it turns out, I think it's fine and this game proved it.

[Hannibal]

BTW despite usually being resistant to rules changes I like the Disrupted/no engaged penalty thing a lot, as does Seth and the rest of the Pandemonium crew.

Hey Niko, if you try out the Disrupted rule, please please please combine it with the revised order of operations (Spells, then Ranged, then Engaged combat).  It has very subtle but very important impacts on the game.  Just last night using an Undead S-A-S, I had the order drastically impact the game in a couple of situations.  When your opponent loses dice and you know he'll be taking a Cge check if he ends the phase engaged, thst changes what cards you'll play (both on the ranged unit and on the engaged unit to keep him there).  And in this (admittedly-shooting-heavy) game, I had not one but two times where a unit was taken from the Yellow to destroyed and thus not able to attack the zombie with which it was engaged.

(That sounds like a lot, but I did concentrate 3 skeli bowmen and a giant catapult on the unit, dropping cards on 3-of-4 units)

[Niko White]

I'm not sure I agree that's a necessary part of the change, though    I mean, I'll test it out at some point when I have time, but AFAIK it isn't going to be in effect for the championship whereas Disrupted/No Engaged Penalty is going to be.  Pretty much everyone wants to do championship ruleset play right now because the tournament is so close.  I'll be back to testing variants after that.

[Hannibal]

I'm not sure I agree that's a necessary part of the change, though

Well certainly you're entitled to your opinion, but we've spent several months now playtesting this, and I would encourage you to take the set of rules as a package deal.  Kevin is choosing not to with his set of house rules for the tournament, and that's certainly his prerogative, so I understand your wanting to practice using those house rules.  But at the same time, please do try them out as a package, because our opinion from having playtested this several times was that the Disrupted rules do result in a net penalty over the status quo package of rules and that this little cookie brings them back up on par (and affects the game ins subtle but positive ways).

[gull2112]

BTW despite usually being resistant to rules changes I like the Disrupted/no engaged penalty thing a lot, as does Seth and the rest of the Pandemonium crew.

Hey Niko, if you try out the Disrupted rule, please please please combine it with the revised order of operations (Spells, then Ranged, then Engaged combat).  It has very subtle but very important impacts on the game.  Just last night using an Undead S-A-S, I had the order drastically impact the game in a couple of situations.  When your opponent loses dice and you know he'll be taking a Cge check if he ends the phase engaged, thst changes what cards you'll play (both on the ranged unit and on the engaged unit to keep him there).  And in this (admittedly-shooting-heavy) game, I had not one but two times where a unit was taken from the Yellow to destroyed and thus not able to attack the zombie with which it was engaged.

(That sounds like a lot, but I did concentrate 3 skeli bowmen and a giant catapult on the unit, dropping cards on 3-of-4 units)

I forget now, does the revised turn order change the order of predetermined attacks, or just the resolution? IOW, must all three types of attacks be allocated before any are resolved?

[Hannibal]

I forget now, does the revised turn order change the order of predetermined attacks, or just the resolution? IOW, must all three types of attacks be allocated before any are resolved?

Yeah, you allocate all attacks first, then you resolve them in the order of Spells, Ranged, Engaged.  Most times allocating attacks won't matter, other than a few odd cases where you're fighting two units, you've DC'd a unit, or a unit is exactly equidistant from another.

Then you do spells, assigning blesses or curses, rolling any dice.  Then you roll any ranged attacks.  Then you roll any engaged attacks.  Each is its own sub-phase.  The big thing is that if a ranged or spell attack puts an enemy unit into the Yellow or Red (or destroyed), then the enemy unit is considered to be in the Yellow/Red/destroyed at the end of each sub-phase.

So, for example, if you have a unit of bowmen behind a swordsmen unit fighting a spearman unit.  The Bowman unit puts the spearmen unit in the Yellow.  When it comes time for the engaged attacks, the spearman unit is in the Yellow and so is at (-1)-0/-0 (and -1 Cge).  Further, lets say the bowmen & swordsmen are Lizardmen.  The Trog swordsmen would get the effects of Blood Frenzy because at the start of the engaged attacks sub-phase, he is fighting an enemy unit in the Yellow.

Or say the swordsmen has a card like the DE Butcher the Unworthy, which gains an additional benefit for the enemy unit being in the yellow.  The enemy unit would be considered in the Yellow if the card was played on the swordsmen.

And of course, lets say in this case the bowmen manages to destroy the spearmen unit, knocking off its last red box.  The spearmen then would not get to attack in the engaged attacks phase because all results of an attack are applied during the ranged attacks sub-phase.

(Note Courage checks are still handled after all combat, in the Post-Combat Courage phase)

It sounds a little complex, but its actually not.  Its just that all ranged attacks basically have one of the pila rules.  And its only weird for like the first game or so. 

[gull2112]

Thanks for the clarification. My first reaction is that this is a boost to missile fire and places an artificial ordinance on combat (i.e. engaged units all freeze, mid-swing, to let the missile units fire) that shouldn't be allowed, except that it is to balance out the nerf of the disrupted rule, in that context, it makes sense. I will have to playtest it, but I see your point.

Many events seem strangely clockworkish and clunky when you divide them up in order to resolve coherently a chaotically fluid thing like a battle. Viewed through such a prism, this rule seems appropriate.