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Author Topic: Combined Arms vs. Spam  (Read 546 times)
BubblePig
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2012, 09:39:54 pm »

Archers also have the ability to respond to a crisis more quickly than a unit that actually has to physically move there.

I would say that the odd point of damage or two every other combat round is not going to solve many crises.
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Hannibal
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2012, 01:05:16 pm »

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Take my recent game with Kevin.  He was able to set up each flank with a unit of spearmen and could have backed either of them up with another unit if needed.  If I'd upgraded my Stags to Centaurs they still would have been awkwardly placed for trying to turn either of his flanks.  Instead I chose to break through near the middle of his line.

Except through use of maneuver you got your Stags on not-his-spear.  And I don't see how having Centaurs is a point either for or against either of our positions.  Sure, Centaurs and Stags vs spears is a bad day for the cavalry.   So you maneuvered them to get a better matchup, going for a mid-line breakthrough instead of a flank.  My point was that I'm not sure that the points spent on ravenwood wouldn't be better spent, for example, upgrading Stags to Centaurs.  I'm confused by your statement that in the above situation Stags was a good buy but making them Centaurs probably wouldn't help because there were spears on the flank.  Stags solved that problem.  Centaurs probably would've done the same maneuvering and been better at getting a breakthrough. 


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I wouldn't argue that a no-archer army can always be upgraded by adding an archer (and stealing points from elsewhere) but I think it's often the case that the archer version is at least as good and sometimes it's better.

I do see the point that you're making, that the advantage of archers is the ability to concentrate damage.  Which is the main appeal of a Combined Arms army:  it can get a breakthrough anywhere.  However, almost by definition its going to do so in a more grindy manner than if you dumped the points into spamming or buying more expensive shock units (the goal in both cases is to win fast by pinching or just having a better unit).  And if a combined army is more of a grindy army, the shooting is almost certainly going to be done mostly when enemy units are engaged, and the (-1)-0/-0 or (-0)-1/-0 engagement penalty hits that army build too hard (IMO).  Because, IMO, it creates too many dead points to be a very good build and in most cases (not all mind you, not being absolutist in my statement here), it's better to spend your points on more units or better units on the line. 

Most of this I'm not just drawing from my experience, but from games and session reports that I've seen.  Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't see a lot of people used combined arms builds.  That being said, I do agree with you and Niko that (wood/high) Elf archers are hurt less by the engaged penalty and those armies usually can do better at the combined arms because of it.  Still not enough for me to do it often, but I guess we'll just disagree on that.   Grin


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But aside from that, addressing the main issue of spam vs. CA, I must say that spam can work once or twice, but once your opponent knows that's what you're bringing, they become markedly less effective, suddenly the one trick pony isn't so attractive.

I don't think spam is a one-trick pony at all.  Spam is just taking a lot of one type of unit.  I've seen very effective builds taking stand and shoot (2 Bowmen + longbowmen), Close & Hose (I start with 3 Libyan Foot in most Carthage armies and adjust from there, and I once faced a very scary 7-wide principes+Italian Foot line), or even more insane builds (I think I saw Kevin take a line of Atlatlmen once; crazy doesn't mean ineffective).  Heck, with Kingdoms once I had 12 Crazed Gobbos, 3 Ogres, and 1-2 Wolf Riders.  There was no trick to that pony, just a hoof-full of crazy in your face.   Grin
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elgin_j
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2012, 02:32:28 pm »

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I wouldn't argue that a no-archer army can always be upgraded by adding an archer (and stealing points from elsewhere) but I think it's often the case that the archer version is at least as good and sometimes it's better.

I do see the point that you're making, that the advantage of archers is the ability to concentrate damage.  Which is the main appeal of a Combined Arms army:  it can get a breakthrough anywhere.  However, almost by definition its going to do so in a more grindy manner than if you dumped the points into spamming or buying more expensive shock units (the goal in both cases is to win fast by pinching or just having a better unit).  And if a combined army is more of a grindy army, the shooting is almost certainly going to be done mostly when enemy units are engaged, and the (-1)-0/-0 or (-0)-1/-0 engagement penalty hits that army build too hard (IMO).  Because, IMO, it creates too many dead points to be a very good build and in most cases (not all mind you, not being absolutist in my statement here), it's better to spend your points on more units or better units on the line. 

Perhaps the way to go is to remove all range fire penalties - thereby making archery units far more potent.  In turn, assign all range units a limit to the amount of times they could fire - to represent a limited amount of missiles.  That would allow them to quickly influence a battle and a breakthrough but that influence would tail off in the mid-battle.  You could even tailor the amount of missiles each unit gets to try and balance the cost-effectiveness ratio.

Just a thought.
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Niko White
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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2012, 02:45:18 pm »


We call those the Bad Old Days.  Tongue

The issue is that stand and shoot is already sometimes a good plan.  Improving ranged fire in general in order to try to improve support archery (especially from less powerful and/or shorter ranged attackers) is likely to unbalance stand and shoot builds.

I broadly agree that I rarely take (4) 5/5 archers, but a lot of the issue there is IMO that the armies that have those options either lack respectable filler (Orcs, Dwarves, sorta M&M) or have more elite versions that are IMO a better deal (Hawks, maybe M&M).  That isn't to say that (4) 5/5 archery is impressive (it isn't) but I would take it sometimes if I had a faction where it came cheap enough and I could spare the points.  "Sparing the points" isn't usually about having to downgrade your line, though - it is about having line units cheap enough for their stalling power that it is worth downgrading to them.  I've actually been pretty pleased with, for example, M&M archers working with the Umenzi, though if I'm going with the fire support route for them I often prefer the elementalist, depending on who I'm facing.

Man, now I want to make a faction where (4) 5/5 archers are an awesome tool just to prove you can Tongue
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Hannibal
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2012, 03:47:57 pm »

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We call those the Bad Old Days.

Yeah, I'm with Niko on that.


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The issue is that stand and shoot is already sometimes a good plan.  Improving ranged fire in general in order to try to improve support archery (especially from less powerful and/or shorter ranged attackers) is likely to unbalance stand and shoot builds.

That's why we came up with the Disrupted rules.  In fact, it was to address that very rule, and I think the Disrupted rule (combined with the no engaged penalty and the shooting-happens-first) comes as closer than anything suggested so far in boosting the power of support shooting without giving stand and shoots a boost.  We've been playing it a whole bunch and I find myself taking support archers all over the place now.  I really hope the feedback from it is as positive at Kevin's tournament, and maybe even it can make it into canon rules.
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elgin_j
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« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2012, 01:34:23 pm »

Has removing move and fire penalties been considered?  This would not only boost the effectiveness of crossbows but would encourage armies with archers to play more aggressively.
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Niko White
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« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2012, 03:39:35 pm »

Has removing move and fire penalties been considered?  This would not only boost the effectiveness of crossbows but would encourage armies with archers to play more aggressively.

There's a tweak to it that IIRC made it into the next rules version that lets you ignore the move and shoot penalty if you move at a slower MC.  I proposed the change and like it as a compromise because we have some units that pay for not taking the penalty, so it would be kind of unfortunate to remove it entirely.
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elgin_j
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2012, 04:51:04 am »

Has removing move and fire penalties been considered?  This would not only boost the effectiveness of crossbows but would encourage armies with archers to play more aggressively.

There's a tweak to it that IIRC made it into the next rules version that lets you ignore the move and shoot penalty if you move at a slower MC.  I proposed the change and like it as a compromise because we have some units that pay for not taking the penalty, so it would be kind of unfortunate to remove it entirely.

Yep, forgot about that.
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