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Author Topic: Ravenwood vs Carthage  (Read 330 times)
Hannibal
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« on: January 12, 2012, 06:52:58 pm »

Playtested the rules found here:  Skirmisher House Rules.  With one exception.  We played the dice rolled for Free Attacks is 1/3/5 for slower than, equal to, and faster than skirmishers (respectively).

We played without using the stamped version of Foresight, which we think is an inelegant hack and instead determined that in the deployment rules it should state:  a player never sets up more than half his army due to Foresight. 

The mission was Border Defense.  Here's deployment:


I played Carthage and took:  3 Libyan Foot, 2 Balearic Slingers, 1 Scutarii, 1 Elephants, 1 Hannibal's Chosen, 1 Numidian Cavalry, & 5 Foresight.  In the above picture, I have chosen to hide the Hannibal's Chosen in the forest nearest to me.

He played Ravenwood and took:  2 Spearmen, 3 Wolfkin, 2 Stag Cavalry, & 1 Treant.  (To be honest, I have no clue what he was thinking here.  My guess is that he wanted to take the Treant and so sort of locked himself in to an army build that was just a bad idea)


The Elite show up from their hiding place.  Really, I just used it as an advancement deployment.  Not really sure I had to.


For the record, I have no idea what he's doing here.  I would have tried to delay as long as possible engagement on the left.  My guess is that he was thinking that since he only needed 601 pts to get off the table, he was better attempting a breakthrough than playing the waiting game.  Or it could be the constant breaks while I get a good picture breaks his concentration.



The lines clash...


And the skirmishers flee. 

Worth noting, this was the Turn of Courage.  He played Aspect of the Wolf during the free attacks on my slingers, pass their Rout check with the help of a card.  Then he responded by passing every single rout check (black dice), each needing an 11.




This is where things get ugly for Ravenwood.  His Wolf Kin were not able to evade as well as he'd liked against the Libyans and his Stag cavalry got ground down.  Note the skirmishers have been rallied and charged again.  Throughout the night, my friend literally did not get one single extra hit from nets.  Not.  One.




The Treant gets double flanked in a pinch.  On the previous turn, my Libyans failed their Courage check and quickly became Treant-Toe-Jam.  This turn, the Treant smacks the Libyans on its flank and I promptly fail their Rout check.  Free swings and the Libyans blow the second Red check.  Buh-bye Libyans.

Also, on the left flank (bottom of the screen), my Libyans flank and pinch the Wolf Kin.  They fail their rout check and are D-O-N-E for the night.




Okay this is where it gets interesting.  In the center-left (near the bottom), one of the two skirmishers is destroyed (failed its Yellow check).  The other one, in the Red, makes his.  Meanwhile, Treant put the Elephants into the Yellow, and they fail their Courage check.  Free strikes doesn't do enough to put them in the Red. 

This is important, because early on in the game, I had to burn my only Green card to make sure the Slingers didn't flee.  And then, every turn I had to spend 2 CAs to get my slingers back up in the faces of Ravenwood Spearmen (lest I expose my flank).  I did that for 3 turns, meaning I lost 6 command cards doing this.  At this point, I pulled the next 6 Command Cards.  Sure enough, Surge to Victory is in there (would have made those elephants fearless for a turn).

On my turn, I rally them and then comes the Treant:


Elephants go into the Red, fail their rout check, and are run down.  The Treeman then gets pinched on the flank and rear and dies horribly.

At that point we called it.  He had one unit of Ravenwood Spearmen that would get off the table and one that was going to get flanked.  So it was a 4-2 victory for me.


Okay, so our conclusions.  First off, the skirmisher house rules have promise.  However, 1/3/5 isn't going to work.  Our feeling is that at the "faster than" its almost an autokill on the unit (easily could put them into the Red) and at the "slower than" it was just a touch too hard to kill the skirmishers.  My friend felt that 1 die was too risky to spend a Command Card.  I would have done it, but I think he has a point.  Our feeling is that had the skirmishers died a turn earlier the game would have been closer.

As it turns out, I don't think he played this one terribly well from army design on, but I also am not sure using 2 skirmishers to tie down an enemy is a great idea, as it sucks up half your CAs.  I ended up netting like 300 pts out of the deal, which basically allowed me to get the pinch, but that was probably more because the free attacks for skirmishers was more generous to me than it probably should have been.

I toyed with not posting this, but decided to do so to show that sometimes ideas don't work out exactly and also hope to show that while the specific tweak isn't right, I think we're on the right path.  Only more playtesting will show.

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RushAss
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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 11:39:03 am »

Again, nice report.  Even though the results proved inconclusive, there was some good information on the Skirmisher house rules.  I agree that 1/3/5 is too much.

I agree that your opponent didn't have the best build.  To be honest, I think this is one of the situations where Bear Packs along with a Kin or two to keep them in line may have actually pretty good!  At least he got good use out of the Treant which seemed to be the only Ravenwood unit that distinguished itself.  Crummy luck for your opponent for never getting additional net dice, but that was easily balance out by the lopsided courage dice in this game.
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Hannibal
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« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 12:35:28 pm »

Quote
Again, nice report.  Even though the results proved inconclusive, there was some good information on the Skirmisher house rules.  I agree that 1/3/5 is too much.

Yeah, we think 2/3/4 is better, even if it is more linear and less likely to give outright kills to fast guys.  But the flip side is that there are very few MC 6" or 7" that aren't cavalry.  Raptors and Wolf Packs are the only ones I can think of, and they somewhat mitigate it with their innate rules.  (Numidians clearly take it on the nose though).

Making a roll also tweaks with the card dynamic, but in a good way I think.  Most times, Accuracy/Force is much better than Strike/Might, but in this case you probably want the extra die more.  And since a good number of special rules and army abilities grant bonus dice, I see this as a good little twist.  You might use Precision when your Rangers crash into the skirmishers.


Quote
I agree that your opponent didn't have the best build.  To be honest, I think this is one of the situations where Bear Packs along with a Kin or two to keep them in line may have actually pretty good!  At least he got good use out of the Treant which seemed to be the only Ravenwood unit that distinguished itself.  Crummy luck for your opponent for never getting additional net dice, but that was easily balance out by the lopsided courage dice in this game.

Well, there's probably a little more in my favor in the end, because when both his Wolf Kin ran, my Libyans hit and wounded with like 3 out of 4 dice.  For the Libyans that pinched the Treant, this outright killed his Wolf Kin, thus setting up the pinch.  The other case, at the bottom of the screen, I put them in the Red and was therefore much more willing to pinch rather than chase them down.

But yeah, I don't think that was a great build. In fact, I believe I mentioned that the Wolf-Kin hokey-pokey was a bad idea because I was both Off Skill 6 and had Pilas.  But I think he got caught in the Big Guy Trap.  He took a big guy and then because he didn't want to 'waste' the points of the MC 5" took a bunch of guys to guard its flanks that simply couldn't hold up.

Also, this is a bit of a quantum phenomenon in that by the act of you guys watching, you affect the results.  I've more or less been able to keep my head in the game while taking pics, but its clearly affecting my friend more than me.  He's one of those absent-minded professor types that can focus in on something intently, but he can get off the rails on a tangent, which he then focuses on.

During these games, while I'll take pictures he'll step out for a smoke, or use the restroom, or chat with my wife or kids (we've ended up playing a lot of these at my house).  So after I take the pictures, I'll step outside to chat with him while he finishes his smoke or I'll join in on the conversation.  Now we're talking about football (Go Niners!), or politics, or the insane things my kids just did/said (still more logical and coherent than some of the rules interpretations I heard in my 40K tourney-judge days).  Then its back to the game and he's like "okay, what was I doing again?"

And as you can see I tend to take more pictures early and late in the game, because I get focused as well and forget.  Well, the early stages are really bad if your train of thought constantly gets disrupted.  The late stages, heck the game's basically decided at that point.

For example, his plan early on was to attempt to force a breakthrough.  So he wouldn't try a delaying tactic, even if it meant eating a pinch.  That turned out to be a bad idea (although, in the end, it wasn't the Hannibal's Chosen & Numidians which won the game for me, as they were tied down in the forest).  Had there not been those interruptions, I think he would have delayed a turn with the stag cavalry because even if they were going to lose, an extra turn or tow and then having my guys slog through the forest would've mattered.  Also, forcing me to charge his front with the Numidians meant he could focus his attacks on them so as to keep the fast mover from running around behind his lines.  Which is the big red flag for me, because we always joke about:  "Corey uses the fast horse archers to set up a pinch, Scott DCs to slide sideways to force a Two's Company.  Rinse, repeat."

The Stag cavalry facing the elephants were always gonna take it on the chin.  Again, I think early on a DC to have the Treant switch places with the Stag Cavalry would've been a good idea.  And he diagnosed that early on, he should have had that the Wolf Kin switch places with the Ravenwood Spearmen, as they would've run down the skirmishers that much faster.  From a playtest POV, I'm glad he didn't because it exposed the flaw in the free attacks, so its not inconclusive as you say.  All results are data, and having your hypothesis proved right is not as useful as having good data.  In this case, having a bad result was good data because it helped prevent a false positive of sorts, wherein I say "Oh yeah, this is perfect as is!"  Then we have a long email thread where we go back and forth, then Kevin starts calling me names, and it ends with me rocking back and forth in the corner sucking my thumb.   Grin 

Anyway, not making excuses, that was a silly build, but I think the process is having an effect on him.  Because we played again that very night, he had me pretty well beat and I clawed my way back to a draw.  (Of course, both games were a form of playtesting.  I was playing Jerusalem, where there was some pretty heavy limitations for me.  Her, the skirmisher rules turned out to be too generous for me.  Probably didn't change much in the end, just sped up the outcome.)  Still, after this game, he was shaking his head and saying "Why in God's name didn't I do X here, Y here, and Z here?"
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elgin_j
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« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 03:09:00 pm »

You need to sort out that god-awful table.  Pop down the haberdashery and get some green felt to mark up as a battlefield.
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toodle pip
gornhorror
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« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 03:59:22 pm »

I personally think that your opponent did not maneuver the stags well in this game.  Also, from the sound of it, it seems as though most of the Ravenwood units underperformed.  This only leads me to believe that the Treant probably would of been even more effective if your opponents other units performed better.  The fact that it was the last Ravenwood unit standing was no surprise. "Release the Rivvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!"
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RushAss
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« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 03:59:55 pm »

Also, this is a bit of a quantum phenomenon in that by the act of you guys watching, you affect the results.  I've more or less been able to keep my head in the game while taking pics, but its clearly affecting my friend more than me.  He's one of those absent-minded professor types that can focus in on something intently, but he can get off the rails on a tangent, which he then focuses on.

During these games, while I'll take pictures he'll step out for a smoke, or use the restroom, or chat with my wife or kids (we've ended up playing a lot of these at my house).  So after I take the pictures, I'll step outside to chat with him while he finishes his smoke or I'll join in on the conversation.  Now we're talking about football (Go Niners!), or politics, or the insane things my kids just did/said (still more logical and coherent than some of the rules interpretations I heard in my 40K tourney-judge days).  Then its back to the game and he's like "okay, what was I doing again?"
Man, it would be interesting for you to play in our group.  Often times we are drinking and being downright obnoxious.  It's a wonder I remember half of the crap that I post - LOL
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Hannibal
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« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 04:29:23 pm »

You need to sort out that god-awful table.  Pop down the haberdashery and get some green felt to mark up as a battlefield.

 Huh  Why add another accessory to carry around when you don't need to?  Dag nabbit, in my day we played Battleground on the kitchen table, and that's the way we liked it!


I personally think that your opponent did not maneuver the stags well in this game. 

Oh, I know he didn't.  And so does he.   Cool


Quote
Also, from the sound of it, it seems as though most of the Ravenwood units underperformed.  This only leads me to believe that the Treant probably would of been even more effective if your opponents other units performed better. 

Yeah, he missed on the nets, but to be fair the stags were the only ones with really lots of die rolling.  The spearmen tangled with the skirmishers most of the game.

As for the Treant, it performed so well because I went oh-for-three on Courage checks (two at 12 and one at 10).  We also cheated a touch and used our Monster rules instead of the Outreached rule.  So the Treant got an impact hit on the charge instead of the (-1)-0/-0 for the Libyans.  We went ahead and did it, well, because we forgot.   Tongue   We'd been playing with them for so long that we simply used them without thinking.
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gull2112
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« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 06:08:45 pm »

Man, it would be interesting for you to play in our group.  Often times we are drinking and being downright obnoxious.  It's a wonder I remember half of the crap that I post - LOL

Yeah, I don't know how you guys do it! One of the reasons I don't care for tourneys is that I can't concentrate with all the distractions. If I didn't have hot dice, I'd have nothing.
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gull2112
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2012, 06:26:00 pm »

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Mike's unqiue map board & improved bases set is hereby designated The Giant Slayer Prize!

Only people who do not make the final 4 of Championship, and did not make final 3 [1] in 2011, are eligible to win The Giant Slayer Prize.

The prize will be awarded to whoever defeated the person who placed highest in the main tournament, but only people who place higher than you count.  (For example if the winner goes undefeated, and 2nd place only lost to people who placed 1st and 4th, but the person who placed 7th beat the person who placed 3rd, the prize goes to the person who placed 7th.)

In the (highly unlikely) event of a tie, it will be awarded based on the 2nd best record of a person that you defeated.

If nobody who didn't make the final 4 defeats anyone who made the final 4, this prize will be awarded to the top new/casual player (who doesn't make the final 4).

I think if nobody wins the prize I'll mail it to Hannibal so his session reports look civilized. Wink
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Hannibal
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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2012, 02:15:37 pm »

And for you, Gull, I'd use it.   Cool


As an aside, while we were watching the game yesterday (Go Niners!!!), I found out why my buddy got so badly pinched on the top of the screen:  he forgot about the Hannibal's Elite.  It was that whole interruption thing and he just moved up his Stags, keeping himself in the forest as additional protection from the Numidians' javelins, forgetting that like twenty minutes earlier I'd said I was hiding a unit.  By then it was too late and he was set up for a pinch.
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