The Way of the Troll

[gull2112]

Trolls are often left in the box, I have been as guilty of this as anyone, but I recently took a good hard look at them and rethought their role in the Orc faction and came to the conclusion that their role and abilities have just been misunderstood.

The trick with Trolls is not to be deceived by their cost into thinking that they can tank vs. a similar costed unit, they can't, and they are poor as conventional tanking units because they are way too pricey. I've tried to use them this way and have handed some victories to my opponents thinking the whole problem was with the Trolls themselves, and not with my employment of them.

The other foul is to think of them as heavy cavalry, with their 5" MC and high toughness this is very understandable, but they do not get impact hits, nor do they have an adequate defensive skill, so they will lose in this matchup as well.

Battleground is a game about matchups. When you setup you should be thinking first about who they are going up against and modify this by how you want to fulfill your objectives and how the units can support this goal. You want to find the medium to light units in your opponents line and aim your Trolls at them.

Think of the Trolls as having seven green boxes and not much else. It is very easy to look at all fourteen of those boxes and think that you've got greater depth in the unit than you really do. Once you're out of green boxes you've got about a 50% chance or routing every turn you're in combat because you're trying to roll eleven or less every time you take any damage.

Trolls are the quintessential bulleys of the battlefield. They can dish it out and as long as they are only taking a little damage they can recoup it with their regeneration. This makes them superior to cavalry who have very few green boxes and cannot take turn after turn of minor damage. Cavalry can charge and breakthrough a line, Trolls can wade into a line and just start rolling it up.

Surrounding Trolls with Crazed goblins is a formation that I've had mixed success with because of the difficulty of keeping the goblins around the Trolls, they tend to get distracted and run off in different directions, leaving my Trolls isolated and pinched. When they do manage to swarm around the Trolls as they charge the line the results can be very spectacular, I remember taking out a Hill Giant in two turns!

[Hannibal]

Yeah I'm sorry but your argument just doesn't hold water.  Calling them "bullies" is basically saying "when you match a 400 pt unit up against a 200 pt unit you win."  Well...yeah.  That's what's supposed to happen.

However, if you match Trolls against any similarly costed melee unit, they lose.  Bad.  Against Knights they get owned.  Against Lizardmen Ancients they get thumped.  Against Umenzi Chosen, HE Elder Blade Swordsmen, DE Dusk Blades, the Trolls lose hard.  And Trolls are ahead 20-50 pts in that case. 

Trolls can beat up on 300 pt units, but they should.  They're +100 pts on the unit.  The fact is they should blow right through them.

Think of the Trolls as having seven green boxes and not much else.

Yeah...at which point that's 75 pts off their cost.  Which means by definition they're overcosted.

I'm sorry, but I just thoroughly disagree with your thesis.  I agree with your premise, that Trolls aren't good tanks.  I also think they're not great at inflicting damage (relative to their points).  And something needs to be done to make them decent at one of those two roles.

[gull2112]

Yeah...at which point that's 75 pts off their cost.  Which means by definition they're overcosted.

Cool, I'm on board with that. Lets drop 56 points off their cost (350) and call it fair.


Kevin...we got a live one for the rules team forum!

[gornhorror]

What about giving the trolls 6 hit dice?  I know that changes the card but it gives them a little more offensive power.  Also, once they go into the red, they still have 4 hit dice. 

[Kevin]

I'll happily put something up to a vote if requested.

As said in another thread, a hidden strength of regeneration is that it makes the unit very resistant to ranged attacks which slowly trickle on the samage.  Put trolls up vs...I don't know...maybe some Dwarf Axemen with a Dwarf Ballista shooting at them the whole way in, and I'll be you anything that they'll outperform Ancients.

I'd call them a very mediocre, but situationally useful, unit.  Most factions have one or two of these.

[Hannibal]

Cool, I'm on board with that. Lets drop 56 points off their cost (350) and call it fair.

My understanding was changing the front of the card and the points cost was a definite no-no.

My bigger point to the original battle report is that the 7G 7R hit box configuration is a terrible setup.  Its a situation where the formula can produce a similar cost but a massively inferior result.  Like I said, a 5/5/4 hit box costs like 2-3 pts more than the 7/0/7 setup and is massively superior in every way.  Put the Trolls against a 350 pt unit (HE Elder Blades) and they'll still lose.  Really as is, they're about a 330 pt unit not a very good one.  I'd still take Axemen over them.

As said in another thread, a hidden strength of regeneration is that it makes the unit very resistant to ranged attacks which slowly trickle on the samage.

Except folks aren't gonna put archer units on Trolls.  Specifically for that reason.  Paying the huge markup Trolls do isn't worth that minor benefit.

Put trolls up vs...I don't know...maybe some Dwarf Axemen with a Dwarf Ballista shooting at them the whole way in, and I'll be you anything that they'll outperform Ancients.

Sure, probably.  But both will get pretty well owned.  Trolls will also do better than Ancients when facing Knights, but both well get pretty well thumped.

[gull2112]

Quote
As said in another thread, a hidden strength of regeneration is that it makes the unit very resistant to ranged attacks which slowly trickle on the samage.

Except folks aren't gonna put archer units on Trolls.  Specifically for that reason.  Paying the huge markup Trolls do isn't worth that minor benefit.

Exactly, its not that they are going to shoot at them ineffectively, its that they aren't going to shoot at them at all. In effect, it makes them immune to that damage because people aren't even going to try.

[RushAss]

The trick with Trolls is not to be deceived by their cost into thinking that they can tank vs. a similar costed unit, they can't, and they are poor as conventional tanking units because they are way too pricey. I've tried to use them this way and have handed some victories to my opponents thinking the whole problem was with the Trolls themselves, and not with my employment of them....

...Battleground is a game about matchups. When you setup you should be thinking first about who they are going up against and modify this by how you want to fulfill your objectives and how the units can support this goal. You want to find the medium to light units in your opponents line and aim your Trolls at them.

Trolls are the quintessential bulleys of the battlefield. They can dish it out and as long as they are only taking a little damage they can recoup it with their regeneration...

We're on a wavelength with this one Mike.  I always thought of Trolls as excellent dispatchers of lesser units.  They are great vs. things like Undead, Umenzi, and many Hawk core units.  I never liked the idea of matching them up one-on-one with my opponent's heavy hitters.  I think bully is a great role for them.  One thing many folks don't realize is that the regeneration becomes a really big deal later in the game where units need to travel more to engage an enemy.  This really manifests in the big (3000+ points) games.  I also agree with Kevin that they are a mediocre but situationally useful unit.  The Orcs are already a decent faction despite the Trolls being mediocre.  While they are flawed, I think they are beyond the point of a proper fixing as Hannibal suggests and the cheap fix of allowing them to regenerate out of the red will have to stand.

[Hannibal]

I always thought of Trolls as excellent dispatchers of lesser units.  They are great vs. things like Undead, Umenzi, and many Hawk core units.  I never liked the idea of matching them up one-on-one with my opponent's heavy hitters.  I think bully is a great role for them.

I respect you guys and please know I mean no rudeness, but I can't describe this train of thought in any other way than 'just silly.'

To say that something is balanced and yet it is a bully unit suited for taking on lesser cost units instead of pulling its weight is almost a contradiction in terms.  Over and over and over in this game we've seen that if two units designed for the same role cost the same, they can go head to head and have it come out to a coin flip.  And if they don't, there's extenuating circumstances (such as having a 2.5" mv vs a 3.5" mv that isn't factored into a roll off).  Put 400 pts of Knights on 400 pts of Knights, and you'll usually get a draw.  If something can't face a unit of similar cost and role, it is not balanced.

I really think this is a case of Status Quo bias, which is a natural human reaction.  I've seen this happen a lot, here and elsewhere.  Pages and pages of comments about 'oh this unit sucks' or 'that unit should stay in the box' but when a suggestion is floated to tweak it, there's almost always pushback in the form of "oh no that unit is situationaly useful."

Yeah, the situation where its useful is putting it back on the box and spending that 400 pts intelligently.   

[RushAss]

Well if what you are saying is true, how come a T-Rex can own a Celestial Guard just about every time, yet they are both costed the same?  And Heavy Cavalry units sometimes assume a similar role to large monster units, but a unit of Death Knights is going to get destroyed by a similarly costed T-Rex or Giant War Elephant every single time.

For the record I don't think the Trolls are really balanced and I don't use them often, but I don't think they are useless either.  It's a bummer that the most expensive unit in the Orc army doesn't live up to it's billing, but the Orcs have got plenty of ways to cover that deficiency.

[Kevin]

To say that something is balanced and yet it is a bully unit suited for taking on lesser cost units instead of pulling its weight...

*DING!*

What is "Cavalry."


What'd I win?  

[Hannibal]

Well if what you are saying is true, how come a T-Rex can own a Celestial Guard just about every time, yet they are both costed the same?

Because if you plug in the numbers of the T-Rex vs the Celestial Guard you're failing to take into account 1) the MC difference, 2) the always-on-Close, and 3) the "drop 2-CCs to play a CC" limit.  Take those out, and the T-Rex is like a 700pt unit.

What is "Cavalry."

Put 400 pts of cavalry on 400 pts of cavalry.  Bet you its a coin-toss to see who wins.

Put 400 pts of anything on the Trolls.  Bet you its the "anything" that wins.

[RushAss]

Well if what you are saying is true, how come a T-Rex can own a Celestial Guard just about every time, yet they are both costed the same?

Because if you plug in the numbers of the T-Rex vs the Celestial Guard you're failing to take into account 1) the MC difference, 2) the always-on-Close, and 3) the "drop 2-CCs to play a CC" limit.  Take those out, and the T-Rex is like a 700pt unit.

OK, let's try the Giant War Elephant then.  Less than 3% more costly than the CG, no always-on-close issue, no restriction on command cards.  Leaving only the MC difference which is negligible since the CG can sprint for a CA.

Put 400 pts of cavalry on 400 pts of cavalry.  Bet you its a coin-toss to see who wins.

Put 400 pts of anything on the Trolls.  Bet you its the "anything" that wins.

I had a situation arise this weekend in a game against Brook where I had Centaurs that managed to get 2 Javelin throws before charging head on into Trolls.  There was additional pinching that occurred for both sides on following turns, but guess which unit was the sole survivor?  Would you believe it was the Trolls?  Well, it was.  "Anything" did not win that time around.

[Kevin]

Put 400 pts of cavalry on 400 pts of cavalry.  Bet you its a coin-toss to see who wins.

Put 400 pts of cavalry Trolls on 400 pts of cavalry Trolls.  Bet you its a coin-toss to see who wins.

Can we at least try to come up with a better rationale for something being balanced than that it has even odds to beat itself?

[gull2112]

What Trolls have is staying power. Heavy cav has two or three green boxes whereas Trolls have seven. So once they blow their load on the charge they're pretty much done, the Trolls can keep going. This is why I call them excellent bulleys. Cavalry will get worn down sooner picking on weaker units.