Dwarves vs Orcs

[Hannibal]

Our second game of the night was Dwarves vs Orcs.  Basically, we wanted to try out my crackpot theory that Dwarves would mostly be balanced if they got 8% more points when building an army.  It seems like a strange number to say 8%, but the difference between MC2.5" and MC 3.5" is almost exactly 10% and since Dwarves can Final Rush 3.5" there has to be some cost for that.  Also, 8% has a nice side effect of always coming out to an even number.

(Oh and we have the 8% rule apply any time there's points.  So in the case of reinforcements, the player normally has to hold 825 pts or some such in reserve.  The Dwarves hold 108% of that number.  Just for reference if anyone wants to try this out.)

This game was a little bit less "serious playtesting" because, well, it is our game night and we find Total Warfare on an open board to be boring.  So we ended up playing Reinforcements and used a terrain placement system borrowed from Field of Glory (essentially players place 1-2 pieces each that are modified by the opposing player, I can post it if folks are interested).

Also, at the last minute, my buddy dared me to take Trolls.  The fact that I'd just written an analysis on Orcs had gotten me interested in playing them, and so we were talking about what just utter $#!+ the Trolls are.  So we ad-hoc'd their damage boxes to be 5G 5Y 4R instead of 7G 7R.  The cost comes out to within 5 pts.  Note, we were using the regeneration on the back of the card (so no regenerating out of Yellow/Red).

Anyway, deployment:



The rock piles are very rough ground (-2 MC, impassible to cavalry).  My deployment top (right) to bottom (left) of first row:  Goblin, Goblin, Orc Sword, Orc Sword, Orc Spear, Orc Axemen, Trolls.  Second row:  Crazed Goblins behind the Gobbos and Wolf Riders on a hill behind the Orc Swordsmen.

To take the Trolls I had to drop my 2nd Wolf Rider unit, meaning these guys went from line buster to flank protectors.  Especially because I figured he'd have at least one unit of Antonians out there and they'd plow right through my Wolf Riders.  I ended up being too conservative with them and it took too long for them to get around the flank and so they didn't provide the benefit I'd hoped.

His deployment top to bottom:  Axemen, Axemen, Axemen, Ballista, Longbeards (out of shot, exactly opposite the Axemen).  He kept the following groups in reserve:  Battleaxemen, Axemen, 2 Antonians.

He was ecstatic that he got the Ballista on the right flank, because he thought he'd shoot my Trolls all day and then, with the very rough ground would be able to shoot up the Orc Spearmen opposite him.  But I realized he'd made a mistake that I could capitalize on if I was willing to A) give up 4 CAs and B) leave those flanking Wolf Riders behind.  A steep order, but, hey when you screw the pooch on plan A, you're choices are pay the price to adapt to plan B or lose.  (Yeah, I'm bragging a little bit here.)  Anyway, here's what I did:



This is my turn 4.  On his turn, the unit of Battleaxemen had arrived and he put them opposite the Trolls so his Longbeards didn't get pinched.  

What I had done was lashed the Axemen every turn so they were moving 5" along with the Trolls.  Normally, this is crazy because you'll just get one and then the other pinched.  However, his clever little Ballista behind the terrain had worked against him.  Because while I couldn't get through the terrain quickly he also couldn't get his units through it.  Not even his Ballista could move quick enough to pinch me.  He'd basically shored up my flank for me and even better, if you notice, the Longbeards are set up behind it.  So once I got into combat, my Trolls were out of Line of Sight.

It cost me 4 CAs and I left the Wolf Riders behind (see how far off they are) and what few CCs I had were spent on ensuring he did no more than 1 pt of a damage to my Trolls (which they regenerate), but the upside was that I basically forced him to put his first reserve unit on that side.  I had figured the Antonians would be coming first and if he could put them on the right side (top of the pic), they and the Dwarven Axemen would blow through the Goblins and roll up my line from the other side.  Thus, I thought, he'd have to put the Antonians opposite the Trolls or give up that flank.  As it turned out, the Antonians came late and the infantry came early, but I was okay with that.  

Now it was a race.  I had my 300 pt Axemen fighting his 400 pt Longbeards and my 400 pt Trolls fighting his 248 pt Battleaxemen.  We both needed our heavy hitter unit to plow through their opponent and flank/pinch first.  Both cases favored the expensive unit, but the cheap unit had spent its points on Pow vs a High Toughness enemy.  Also, those Wolf Riders were coming up fast, so he also had to hold out until his next reserve unit showed up.




My Axemen routed and were cut down but they did get the Longbeards down to 1 box.  The Trolls meanwhile were 1 box away from the Red.  On his previous turn, the Axemen made their Red, meaning I had to kill them in my turn.  This meant he got the flank and his second axemen showed up just as the Wolf Riders were closing.  So I had to let the Wolf Riders advance on the Axemen to protect the flank of the Trolls.

Also, the Orc Spearmen had charged the Ballista.  The other fights were mostly delayed (with my Gobbos on Hold).  The real battle was on the left.




This is a turn where it all went pear-shaped for the Dwarves.  The Trolls killed the Longbeards, then the Wolf Riders and Trolls pinched the Axemen.  The Orc Spearmen in the center took out the Ballista crew and pinched the Dwarf Axemen.  Some bad rout checks for the Dwarves, but really it just sped up the inevitable.




The Antonians arrive but it is too little too late.  The really had no place to go other than where they arrived or in that space where a Dwarf Axemen unit had been wiped out (meaning they'd get pinched).  The forest was an Impassible piece of terrain (i.e. like Fangorn forest thick), so they couldn't go there.

I turned the Wolf Riders around, DCing them to anchor their flank with that impassible-to-cavalry terrain and the board edge so that the Antonians had to come one at a time.  The follow up is that the Wolf Riders were killed by the first unit of Antonians and then the second unit killed off the Trolls, but I used the back-up rule to move the Spearmen in and they finished them off next turn.



In the end, not my most stellar game as I hosed myself early but I recovered and outplayed him I think.  "The victorious general is one the who makes the second-to-last mistake."  I flipped the terrain to my advantage to essentially bifurcate the battle and set up simply more opportunities to punch through his line (In order:  Trolls, Axemen, Wolf Riders, Spearmen who killed the Ballista) while preventing him from doing it anywhere else.  I think his major mistake was putting the Antonians together, making them the largest group and thus the last arriving.  In retrospect, it probably would have been better to have the groups be Battleaxemen, then Antonians, then Antonians+Axemen.  If he'd have been able to hold out for one more turn with his Longbeards (or if they had taken 1-2 fewer points from the Orc Axemen) and then his Antonians were squaring off with my Wolf Riders, there's a good chance he could have rolled me there.

In the end that the game came down to who made the worst mistake and/or a die roll breaking my way says that at the very least the 8% rule isn't insane.  It is worth further investigating, I think.

Oh, and Trolls at 5/5/4.  No brainer.  These guys got 2 turns of being in the Yellow instead of being in the Red, which is two Red checks they didn't have to make.  I'm less passionate about pushing this one, because it's a huuuge change.  But in order to make Trolls not just wretched, something extreme needs to be done.

[RushAss]

Again, nice report! 

On the Trolls - I see why you reconfigured the boxes they way you did, but to me that just makes them feel like a flimsier Treant.  While both units are already similar, that just strikes me as a little off.  With the regeneration stamp they still suck, but even a little nudge to the unit was helpful because the Orcs as a whole where already fine.

That was pretty intuitive of you to keep the Axemen with the Trolls and it worked out pretty well there.  Way to turn the terrain against the Dwarves.  I'm wondering why your opponent didn't have more ranged units.  I mean, if you are going to stand and shoot you might as well have some units with which you can do the shooting.  Yes?

[Hannibal]

On the Trolls - I see why you reconfigured the boxes they way you did, but to me that just makes them feel like a flimsier Treant.

Sure, in the sense that they're both units a person would take.      Seriously, I see the flavor of the boxes like that, but when "flavor" = "stays in the box" then that's a flavor that leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

With the regeneration stamp they still suck, but even a little nudge to the unit was helpful because the Orcs as a whole where already fine.

I'm real big on every unit being useful if at all possible, even if it means the constraints of the game enforce some similarity.  The Trolls have too low Toughness and too high a cost to be a tank unit (remember a 1/3 Def is only marginally better than a 2/2 unit, even before we factor in Large), and the damage boxes means that they're not a good breakthrough unit, because once they go into the Red they're down to 3 attacks.  So you have a really expensive unit that isn't a good tank and isn't a good bruiser.  A fighter that can't beat or take a beating ain't a fighter!   

But I'm also not hugely advocating my fix, because in the realm of design taboo changing stuff on the card is bad, but changing the back of the card is better than the front of the card.  But clearly, something should be done and it needs to be fairly drastic.  Tinkering at the edges like the current regeneration stamp ain't gonna cut it.  And while Orcs are serviceable without Trolls, people really love playing with Trolls.  Its an iconic unit.  It'd be like playing Alexander and having the Foot Companions be a junk unit.  Sure the faction can be fine, but it'd still feel wrong.

I'm wondering why your opponent didn't have more ranged units.  I mean, if you are going to stand and shoot you might as well have some units with which you can do the shooting.  Yes?

Because I was going to be putting +400 pts on the table vs his Dwarves, and I had a small hill in my DZ, which would've been a perfect spot for a Bomb Chucka (whose short range would be out to 10.5" at that point).  So there would be a real chance I could put out lots of crossbowmen + Goblin archers, at which point I could advance at M+S and concentrate fire on his crossbowmen if he took them.  The weakness of Dwarf Crossbowmen is that they're Def 1/2 until engaged, and so you can take them out by shooting pretty easily.  Especially when you have 400 more points on the table for 4 turns.  Not that I've ever done that to him before...

He was essentially taking the ballista as a counter to the bomb chucka and the Troll, hoping against hope I wouldn't take my standard Orc build.  Beyond that, the plan was to hunker down, wait for me to come to him, and then swamp me with superior points.  It might have worked, except his little Ballista-bunker plan was a baby riding a puppy and charging with his dandelion lance into a phalanx of teddy bears (i.e. too cute for its own good).

[gornhorror]

What about this fix for the trolls.  How about they regenerate every movement and command phase when they are not engaged and only on the owners movement and command phase when they are engaged.  That would make them a tad bit more potent, especially against ranged fire on the approach.

[Hannibal]

That would make them a tad bit more potent, especially against ranged fire on the approach.

I have two concerns with this, which is not to say that its a bad idea, but just food for thought.

First, I don't know if its that big of a boost.  With a 5" move, Trolls will be engaged a fair bit of the time or you're doing something wrong.  So there is an incentive for the Orc player to not engage the Troll part of the time fighting with the incentive to get all those points into combat and smashing the enemy.   Seems to be working at counter-principles.

Second, from a more meta-design POV, I'm not sure that tinkering at the edges will fix Trolls.  I feel the unit needs to be "blow'd up" and rethought.  Literally, I think before any tinkering on the Troll is done this question should be answered:  what is the Troll's role?  Is the Troll primarily a breakthrough unit?  Or is it primarily a tank unit?  Right now, I get that feeling that it tries to do both and thus does neither one really well.  I personally feel that the saving grace is to make it a breakthrough unit, as I don't believe the game supports expensive tank units that well, but that is something that could be done. 

If the Trolls are a breakthrough unit, then something should be done to make them fight better.  The 5/5/4 hit boxes means the unit is less likely to run, but also it is going to get 2 more turns of fighting at 4 dice each turn (in the Yellow).  There certainly could be something else done to make them more 'fighty' as my solution isn't the be-all and end-all.  Maybe every turn that it regenerates it gets (+1)+0/+0?  Or maybe when it regenerates, it ignores Cge/dice penalties for being in the Red.  This would give it more dice, but all make the unit less likely ot break on your turn (thus not allowing your opponent to pinch you immediately)

If the Trolls are a tank unit, then I'd make them less likely to run and regenerate more often.  Maybe make them Cge 15, functionally ignoring the penalty for being in the Red.  Ignoring the -2 Cge means they'll fight for ~2 turns longer than they do now.  That means running without 'only' 3-4 Red boxes left as opposed to 5-6 red boxes.  I'd also look at just having them Regenerate every single turn, maybe getting a small +1 Cge when they do.  I dunno, but again, I don't think spending 400 pts on a tank unit is a great idea but making them win a grind out would make them akin to Ravenwood Bears:  by being expensive, grind-it-out units they'd be potentially useful when facing expensive big thump opponents like cavalry.

Anyway, my specific suggestions may not be the answer, but I feel that the unit definitely needs something and it has to be a fairly big change that should stem from deciding on the unit's role.

[RushAss]

The weakness of Dwarf Crossbowmen is that they're Def 1/2 until engaged, and so you can take them out by shooting pretty easily. 

They are def 1/3 until engaged, not 1/2.  I dunno, I still have stood and shot in his position with a lot more ranged units since the Dwarves where going to be stuck there anyways.

The way his Antonians came on to the map was most unfortunate for him.  Where you giggling in your mind when that happened?

[Hannibal]

They are def 1/3 until engaged, not 1/2.  I dunno, I still have stood and shot in his position with a lot more ranged units since the Dwarves where going to be stuck there anyways.

Yeah, I meant 1/3.  I know what I meant, turn on yer telepathy fer chrissakes!    

Facing 1/3 vs 2/3 is a big jump when you're sitting back at long range with archers, and would allow me to soften him up if I took goblin archers & crossbowmen.  And especially with that constrained table, I could sit back with 2 goblin archers, 2 goblin raiders, a bomb chucka, and 4 Orc crossbowmen and pick him apart. 

Given my army build, certainly he could have taken more crossbowmen.  And frankly, I probably would have as well (at least 1 unit).  But I can see why he didn't, and I don't think its absolutely no-brainer.

The way his Antonians came on to the map was most unfortunate for him.  Where you giggling in your mind when that happened?

Not really.  Like I said, there really was nowhere else they could go.  The forest on the right was impassible and so the only place he could deploy was next to the impassible-forest (where he'd immediately get pinched) or where he did deploy.

[gull2112]

What if we simply made the Trolls 1/4 Defense? I know it changes the front of the card, but its just one stat and we did it with the DE misprint. Trolls are s'posed to be stone tough, so the flavor is right.

[gornhorror]

What if we simply made the Trolls 1/4 Defense? I know it changes the front of the card, but its just one stat and we did it with the DE misprint. Trolls are s'posed to be stone tough, so the flavor is right.

Naw, I think that the trolls stats are just fine.  It's the regeneration that needs to be fixed in my honest opinion.

[Hannibal]

I actually think the problem is more with the hit boxes (hence the reason I made the tweak that I did).  Like I said, 5/5/4 is like only 3 pts more expensive than the current 7/0/7.  I'd also be fine with 5/4/5, which makes the Troll slightly cheaper.

When I was doing Wuxing development, I put regeneration on the Jade Nobles as it is written for Trolls and the Jade Nobles were an awesome breakthrough unit.  Obviously, you'd expect that from a Fearless unit with a Def 2/3, but the point was that regeneration didn't feel underpowered.  The unit was expensive, but it felt worth its points.

The problem, for me, is that the Trolls have a 13 Courage.  So they'll fail their second red check.  Against a normal unit, they'll take a second red check on turn 7 of combat (because an average unit will inflict 1.11 pts of damage a turn).  When they do, they'll rout with like 6 Red boxes left. 

When the unit is 5/5/4, they'll take that Red check (and fail it) on turn 9 of combat.  That's two extra turns (obviously), but Trolls will be in the Yellow during those turns and so that will be 8 more dice they roll.  This is a bit abstract of course, because Trolls vs an average unit is a 400 pt vs a 200 pt unit and I haven't factored in regeneration, but in practice if your opponent matches up a 200 pt unit on your Trolls you're very happy.  You'll get comparable results for matching up the Trolls against a similarly costed unit.  The point is more that, once you remove the variables, Trolls at 5/5/4 boxes can fight for two more turns than Trolls with 7/0/7 boxes, for the almost exactly the same cost.

[gull2112]

What if we simply made the Trolls 1/4 Defense? I know it changes the front of the card, but its just one stat and we did it with the DE misprint. Trolls are s'posed to be stone tough, so the flavor is right.

Naw, I think that the trolls stats are just fine.  It's the regeneration that needs to be fixed in my honest opinion.

I feel I must disagree in the strongest terms with both you and Hannibal. IMHO Trolls get beat down way too quickly. The reason the regeneration seems lame is that the Trolls are rarely around long enough for it to matter. The more I think about this fix, the more appropriate it seems. Granted, if this were used then Trolls should not regenerate back into the green. I definitely intend to playtest this one at the first opportunity (though, the way it looks, this might be a pick up game at Kevin's tourney ) Against an average unit Trolls might only suffer 1.11 damage a turn, but that is rarely the case in my experience. Trolls are usually drawing the attention of other 300+ point units AND they only do four dice attacks. In me experience, they usually get damage laid on so quickly that the regeneration rarely is that big a deal. Once you get them into the red they are only doing 2 die attacks and they get really lame.

I do like Hannibal's idea of the yellow boxes, but I think it is too fiddley with the cards. I would suggest playtesting both and I believe that the 4 toughness will win out.

Lazyj, where are you?!!!

[Hannibal]

IMHO Trolls get beat down way too quickly. The reason the regeneration seems lame is that the Trolls are rarely around long enough for it to matter.

I don't think you're wrong at all here. When Trolls were created, the YMG team simply hadn't had the 5+ years of playtest data to work that out.  (not a knock on Chad & Co at all, just a simple fact)

I do like Hannibal's idea of the yellow boxes, but I think it is too fiddley with the cards. I would suggest playtesting both and I believe that the 4 toughness will win out.

I think toughness 4 is way too much for that cost.  Look at Lizardmen Ancients.  They have 2 fewer boxes, -1 Cge, and they pay for Blood Frenzy, yet with the Toughness 4 they cost just about the same.  And what I've been told over and over by folks who play Lizardmen is that the Ancients work fine (I disagree, because of that 6/0/6 spread, but oh well).

Going to Toughness 4 literally halves the damage Trolls take every turn.  Going from Toughness 3 to Toughness 4 is really powerful and, accordingly, really expensive.  (Compare Hawkshold Knights to Death Knights:  the only difference is the point of toughness and that accounts for like 100 pts of cost).

I agree my solution is pretty fiddly, and while I feel it does address the main problem, I can understand if nobody wanted to take that girl to the prom.  But Toughness 4 isn't the answer, I believe.  Not the least without adjusting the cost.

Like I said, I feel that first a decision should be made.  Are Trolls "an aromatic blend of tanky & grindy" or are they "a big plate of breakthrough with subtle hints of tanky"?

If they are tanky & grindy, I'd suggest having 1) the Regeneration kick in every turn, 2) allow them to regen from Red to Green, 3) have them ignore the Cge penalty for being in the Red.

The last one is the real kicker, I think.  Because the odds of them passing two Courage checks is 39%, well below a 50/50.  If they ignore the Red cge penalty, they have a 70% chance of passing two Courage checks.  You're a 50% chance of passing 4 Red checks.


If they're breakthrough + some tanky, I'd suggest something to give them more attacks.  Maybe keep the Regen as it is now, but when they regenerate they ignore all penalties for being in the Red.  This means that on the Orc player's turn they'll usually get (+2)+0/+0 and +2 Cge, making them much less likely to break on your turn.  They'll be likely to break on your opponent's turn, but that'll mean the opposing unit has to stand there for a whole turn.



I find it funny that we've generated a ton of chat on the Trolls, when the game was showcasing the +8% rule for Dwarves.  The Trolls was literally a last minute thing we threw in for gits and shiggles.

[gornhorror]

What if we simply made the Trolls 1/4 Defense? I know it changes the front of the card, but its just one stat and we did it with the DE misprint. Trolls are s'posed to be stone tough, so the flavor is right.

Naw, I think that the trolls stats are just fine.  It's the regeneration that needs to be fixed in my honest opinion.

I feel I must disagree in the strongest terms with both you and Hannibal. IMHO Trolls get beat down way too quickly. The reason the regeneration seems lame is that the Trolls are rarely around long enough for it to matter. The more I think about this fix, the more appropriate it seems. Granted, if this were used then Trolls should not regenerate back into the green. I definitely intend to playtest this one at the first opportunity (though, the way it looks, this might be a pick up game at Kevin's tourney ) Against an average unit Trolls might only suffer 1.11 damage a turn, but that is rarely the case in my experience. Trolls are usually drawing the attention of other 300+ point units AND they only do four dice attacks. In me experience, they usually get damage laid on so quickly that the regeneration rarely is that big a deal. Once you get them into the red they are only doing 2 die attacks and they get really lame.

I do like Hannibal's idea of the yellow boxes, but I think it is too fiddley with the cards. I would suggest playtesting both and I believe that the 4 toughness will win out.

Lazyj, where are you?!!

Wait, I thought Orc Trolls get 5 attacks when they are in the green and 3 when they go in the red, not 4 and 2 respectively.  Also, can't you give Trolls lash and give them an extra hit die?  They are a big, expensive unit that you can play a command card on without penalty AND also use lash on the same turn.  Throw in the regeneration and they are a pretty good unit.   Even a Treant, if it uses it's spirit guidance, can't also play a command card on the same attack turn.  Now, you want to give a Troll unit the same defensive profile?  I have a hard time agreeing with that.  I've played the orcs faction quite a few times and I've always been ok with how the trolls performed.  I think that they may be a tad on the expensive side, but by no means are they a bad unit.  I really think if the regeneration is tweaked in the right way, they will be just fine.

[Hannibal]

They are a big, expensive unit that you can play a command card on without penalty AND also use lash on the same turn.

If you're lashing them for the (+1)+0/+0, that's a terrible waste of a CA in my mind.  I Lash only when it gives me flanks/pinches or charging earlier than I otherwise would.

I've played the orcs faction quite a few times and I've always been ok with how the trolls performed.  I think that they may be a tad on the expensive side, but by no means are they a bad unit.  I really think if the regeneration is tweaked in the right way, they will be just fine.

Yeah, I pretty strongly disagree there.  Trolls as they are now are just a terrible unit.  Axemen do the same damage (slightly better actually), and last almost the same number of turns for 100 pts less.

[gornhorror]

Well, I find lash to be one of the better faction abilities.  I don't consider it to be a waste of a command action for precisely the reasons you stated.  Using it for just the extra attack die is not a total waste, especially if you have a command card to back it up.

Also, I don't think that the Trolls would be such a terrible unit if the regeneration was enhanced.  I like the heal one point every turn suggestion.  Then they would be worth the points.