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Author Topic: Dwarves vs Dark Elves  (Read 439 times)
Hannibal
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« on: December 20, 2011, 03:29:13 am »

We playtested the house rules found here.

We played Dwarves vs Dark Elves using the Dark Elf uber stand and shoot:  5 Slave Warriors, 2 Pure Blood Coven, 2 Lords of Dusk.  The Dwarf army was 6 Axemen and 2 Antonian Horse.  We figured that if the match was close with Dwarves vs the DE shootyness, then the house rules made it close against any matchup.




This is actually his first turn, and that's why his Antonians on the flank are moving out.  The center is his 6 Axemen.  My line consists of Slave-Slave-Salve-Lord-Lord-Slave-Slave, with the Covens in the back.  The d10s are objective markers, the black d6s are Witching Hour markers.

I actually took turn 1 and managed to inflict 4 pts of damage on the 1st turn.  He then promptly failed his Courage check.  Right out of the gate, the Disrupted rule prevented the game from basically being over, because although it cost 2 CAs for him to get th eunit moving (the same number of CAs it takes to get a routing unit back into the fray) he wouldn't be losing any space between the unit and the rest of his line (i.e. not opening a hole in the line).

I needed 3s & 4s with 5 dice and then 4s and 4s with 4 dice.  Should've been 3 pts, but I managed to do 4 pts on that first shot.  This was a pattern all day, my dice rolling were insanely hot.




This a few turns later, after his axemen unit failed their second Cge check and became Disordered.  Again, my dice were really hot.  I needed 4s and 4s with 5 dice on one shot (should've done ~2 pts) and I did 4 points.  By this time, the axemen unit had 1 Red box left and so he chose to leave them Disordered because my Dusk Lords had objectives to shoot at him, thus forcing me to either waste a round shooting or to spend CAs to change the their objectives (obviously not a tough decision for me).




His Antonians go on a suicide run.  His hope was to bust through the Slaves or at the least tie down the Coven the turn or two so they couldn't use Witching Hour while the rest of his line closed.  If one of his Antonians could fight their way free they could roll up my line pretty quickly.




Judicious use of Evil Eye stripped off a very useful 6th die which meant that rolling up the Slaves in one-round wasn't going to happen.  But at least i also fled so no free attacks.  Worth noting that I needed 1s to hit and got 3 hits and then 3 wounds.  I did not play a Red card here.




It's all over but the shouting here.  On my left, pinching Coven and Slaves take out the Antonians, then turn to expose the Axemen to Coven coming round the far flank, Slaves on the front, and Slaves on the right.  The best thing he could do was take the pinch and protect the flank of his axemen engaged with the Slaves and the axemen that had engaged the Lord of Dusk.

Note the Lords of Dusk have no units in front of them.  One unit of Axemen made it into combat, but were in the Red from combined fire from the Lords.  More good rolling on my part, although not as insane as before, but still good.  i.e. was getting 3 hits with the Witching Hour (should get 2-3, so the rounding was still going in my favor and not evening out from my previous good luck).




This is where we called the game.  Pinches all around with the Dwarves about to get rolled hard.



Okay, so the Dark Elves still won pretty easily, but honestly we expected the Dark Elves to win.  The idea was to set up the best case scenario sans terrain for the shooty build in that the Dwarves's slow move would give the DE a full two extra turns of shooting.  The fact that my dice rolling was just sick only made the game even more one sided. 

That being said, given that this was (literally) the best case scenario for the shooty army and that I had hot dice on top of it, the fact that it was one good die roll on either flank from being a dog fight says we're on the right path here.  For example, had the Slaves on the left fled when charged by the Antonians, then the Coven would've had a much harder time even though it was flanking.  And if the Antonians win that grind match, then they can set up flanking when the Dwarves hit the Slaves on the right. 

Similarly, on the right, where the Antonian's charge was much more suicidal, had they not fled and wiped out the Slaves then although they still would've died it would've taken the Pure Bloods charging in to do it.  That's fewer Witching Hours cast, which is fewer points, which means the fight in the center is a closer fight.  And the Pure Bloods probably don't win that fight, even though the Antonians probably die in a grind as they only have 3 boxes left.

Also, in the center, the Axemen which failed not one, but two Rout checks to go Disordered meant that I could turn my attention to the second unit of Axemen a turn early.  That's 9 more dice that I got on those axemen that would've had to go towards killing the original target.  The odds of failing both the Yellow check (on turn 1 no less) and then the Red check is 1-in-5.  That is of course discounting the fact that I had such insane shooting to put 10 pts of damage on a unit in 3 turns (shooting at Extreme & Long range).

But even given all that, the fact that being Disordered only meant losing CAs instead of having a unit 5" behind the line gave my opponent a chance.  It meant that I had to continue to pour firepower in on that same unit and the game wasn't decided literally on the first turn.  So my feeling at the end is that once we control for the fact that 1) this was intentionally set up to be the ideal scenario for a shooty army and 2) literally all the breaks went to the DE and none went to the Dwarves, that the Disordered rule shows some real promise.
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Kevin
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2011, 09:29:04 am »

Yay!  A real report!   Cheesy

Here's a question, do you remember approximately how many Command Cards each side had around the time the lines hit? (Which would be around the 7th Dwarf turn)

Corollary question:  in your opinion, would having Witching Hour cost a Command Action, so that you were only drawing 2 cards/turn, have had an effect on the outcome of this specific game?

More later.
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Hannibal
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2011, 12:21:47 pm »

Quote
Yay!  A real report!

Yeah, don't expect much more.  It was just that with such a radical suggestion as disrupted, I felt it important to take the time to have visual evidence.


Quote
Here's a question, do you remember approximately how many Command Cards each side had around the time the lines hit? (Which would be around the 7th Dwarf turn)

Well, I didn't spend any CAs on Pain Touch (I bought 3 pts and had 4 units that could get it).  I rallied  1 unit, I DC'd one Coven, and I switched orders on both Dusk Lords.  So I had drawn ~24 cards and used probably about 6-8 on shooting & fighting/defending the Antonians.  Leaving me with about 16 cards or so.

Between removing Disrupted and rallying the Antonians, he would've drawn at most 22 cards and I don't think he did many runes (waiting until our lines met so that if I killed his units on the way in the CAs weren't wasted).  He burned at least 4 on the Antonians and easily another 6 on Dwarves being shot at.  That would mean he had about 12 when the lines hit.


Quote
Corollary question:  in your opinion, would having Witching Hour cost a Command Action, so that you were only drawing 2 cards/turn, have had an effect on the outcome of this specific game?

Definitely.  When I designed the list, I forgot that Witching Hour was a hex on the enemy unit (as opposed to blessing the Lords) that only works on spell attacks so I couldn't tag team the Dwarves with it because a unit can't be hexed twice. (I've only played DEs twice)

So it took a turn or so before I started using other spells to slow down the Dwarf line or strip attacks off the Antonians.  That second Coven unit didn't feel as useful and in retrospect I'd probably drop it to upgrade some of my line guys and/or take some better cavalry.

If the Witching Hour cost a CA, I doubt I'd take that second Coven as the other spells in the arsenal aren't worth putting an additional 300 pts behind my line.

To answer your question more directly, losing 7 CAs (because I probably wouldn't use Witching Hour with that 2nd Coven if it cost a CA) would have had an impact on the game.  I would have had to choose between using cards on the Lords for shooting or saving them for the combat.  Had I drawn Red cards (and I got both Mights, Force, Accuracy, and Cunning pretty early, so I even lucked out on the card draw), I would've used them on the shooting with the 2nd Lord as the whole plan was shoot open a gap.

In this game it wouldn't have had an impact because his suicide run on both flanks failed and that really was his only chance.  Had one flank been turned, he would have had the card advantage and it would've been a much closer fight because he would have had the CA advantage.  Which considering all the dice breaking my way means that if things had been more equal, costing CAs to cast Witching Hour meant that the Dwarves in the middle would've been beat up but made it to the lines and die just in time for them to collapse the DE flanks and roll up the whole line. 

Which at least implies that if the slowest army in the game could win against the stand and shoot where Witching Hour costs a CA means that doing so would be a pretty strong nerf.  Too strong?  I dunno.  Haven't played DEs enough to answer that.  I will say that with that nerf I'm never taking more than 1 Coven for this stand and shoot.  600 pts is too much to put behind the line for a -1 MC spell or -1 attack spell.  300 is a lot considering you can't rout the enemy from shooting with this rules tweak.

Hope that helps.
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RushAss
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2011, 02:50:27 pm »

Nice to see this!  I'll go over it as soon as I get my own stinkin reports up and I have time to make intelligible comments.
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BubblePig
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2011, 07:54:00 pm »

Great report!  Smiley

Quote
Yeah, don't expect much more.  It was just that with such a radical suggestion as disrupted, I felt it important to take the time to have visual evidence.
I still consider myself something of a newcomer. Someday I am going to get to the point where part of my brain isn't telling me, "You are totally dissing Chad, and this will alienate the people he (and others) worked so hard to bring to this game!" when I advocate a rule change. Until then I pretty much consider them all "radical suggestions."
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 06:43:25 pm by BubblePig » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2011, 05:17:33 pm »

I feel badly for your opponent.  Very badly since he got jobbed so badly by his courage dice and your attack dice.  Slave Warriors should never do more than a point of damage to Antonians on the charge without cards.  All around, a total luck crapfest for the Dwarves.  That's not to say that your play didn't earn you the win because it was certainly quite competent.  I don't like Dark Elves when playing Dwarves to begin with.  It's one of the very rare instances where I'd seriously consider bringing a Healer Mage along for the ride.

To be honest, I didn't put much credence into the disjointed rule when you first introduced it simply because I'm not a fan of complicating courage check rules (or any rules for that matter) unless it is necessary.  Seeing this rule in action has caused me to warm to it, though.  I'm still not 100% sold on it, but I see the sense of it and it's utility in keeping your line intact is sure nice.  I wonder if making disordered optional for the defender is viable?
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gull2112
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2011, 06:40:53 pm »

Excellent report!

I noticed you had your Dusk Lords starting behind other units. Is there method in your madness. I would think their blocked LOS', since they are direct fire, would have lessened their effectiveness too much.
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Hannibal
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2011, 07:00:17 pm »

Seeing this rule in action has caused me to warm to it, though.  I'm still not 100% sold on it, but I see the sense of it and it's utility in keeping your line intact is sure nice. 

We played it one time with Rome vs a HE army with a lot of shootyness.  I busted open his line and was going after his archers with some Principes.  Two HE archers fired into the Principes, disordering them.  But because he couldn't rout them I was guaranteed to be able to charge (albeit costing me 2 CAs).  Sorry no pics on that (we played it awhile ago), but I did beat up a HE stand and shoot despite having to walk across a river at -2 MC.  Full disclosure on that one:  he did foolishly place Knights and let me shenanigan them with Italian cavalry (i.e. hide in the corner forcing him to come away from the fight or take the charge in the flank).

I'll see if I can get another game in vs the DE SAFH, with a matchup that isn't horrible for the footslogger.  Any suggestions?  Rome?


Quote
I wonder if making disordered optional for the defender is viable?

Egh?  As in letting them choose to rout or be disordered?  If so I'd be concerned about that because I tend to not like players to have a choice to use rules tweaks to avoid the worst case.  For example, let's say you charge your Antonians in and kill my unit of Slaves.  Since you're not engaged at the time you take the check, you're just Disordered.  But that's actually worse, because you're standing there on my turn with really hefty attack penalties and Cge penalty, meaning I can charge in with a cheap second rank unit and rout you (possibly destroying you).  If your Antonians have the choice to rout, you'd obviously run away.

Similarly, let's say I force a lucky check with some shooting on a unit and you don't want to expend the 2 CAs to lift disordered (need the CAs elsewhere) but if you leave the unit there for a turn when it comes around to my turn they might be charged and routed off.  So you choose to rout them to safety and then rally later.

I don't like either case there.  If shooting becomes about disrupting and peeling off attack dice (by putting a unit into the Yellow), then the other guy shouldn't be able to get out of harm's way of disrupting.  I mean, the shooter already can't rout them, no point in making it so that the shooter can't at least set up a devastating charge later.



Excellent report!

I noticed you had your Dusk Lords starting behind other units. Is there method in your madness. I would think their blocked LOS', since they are direct fire, would have lessened their effectiveness too much.

The guys behind the line are Coven.  The Dusk Lords are the 3rd and 4th units from right, side by side.  They had clear LOS with the stunties.   Grin
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Kevin
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2011, 09:13:11 am »


Quote
I'll see if I can get another game in vs the DE SAFH, with a matchup that isn't horrible for the footslogger.  Any suggestions?  Rome?

Not Rome.  Skirmishers throw a new curveball into the whole stand & shoot thing.  How about Hawkshold?  Perfectly good, vanilla infantry units with 3.5" speed as well as decent cavalry (Avoid the 2.5" movers of course.).  Orcs would be the #2 choice--they benefit from the Lash, but are hurt by the higher toughness which isn't worth much vs. the 7 power.

Agreed that players shouldn't get to choose Disordered or Routing.  The whole point of routing at least is that the unit is no longer under the commander's control.

Thanks for the comments on Witching Hour.  I'm nervous that charging one CA isn't enough, but maybe it is.  As you pointed out here, the dice were on your side this game.
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2011, 03:08:13 pm »

Quote
I'll see if I can get another game in vs the DE SAFH, with a matchup that isn't horrible for the footslogger.  Any suggestions?  Rome?

The advantage with Orcs is that you can use a whole wall of Goblin Skirmishers (fanatics). I've been thinking this would be a fun tactic to try...if only I had an opponent. Tongue They move so fast that the DE would be frantically trying to take them out. And they don't go down that easily...I will resist all urges to make a follow up comment. Grin
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Hannibal
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2011, 04:48:56 pm »

Quote
How about Hawkshold?  Perfectly good, vanilla infantry units with 3.5" speed as well as decent cavalry (Avoid the 2.5" movers of course.).

I actually thought Hawkshold would be a poor choice because it so very much works against both the DE player and testing out the rule:  Hawks have 5 Green + 2 Yellow boxes and Bravery.  Meaning that you might pass right through the yellow check and go to the Red check, instead of that nice Yellow->Red progression of checks.  But also you wouldn't be failing many checks at all.

I was actually thinking of Orcs because although they do have a fair amount of dead points in that T3, they also do have 4 Green + 4 Yellow and, more importantly to test out whether Disrupted means you keep your line in order, a mediocre Courage.  Maybe:  4 Goblin Warriors, 2 Crazed Gobbos, 1 Orc Spear, 2 Wolf Riders, 2 Axemen, 1 CC.

Rome with no skirmishers?  Maybe Ravenwood? (they have a mediocre courage).  Or you know...Hydra Kingdoms:  4 Ogres, 1 Hydra, 1 Bowriders.


With the Dark Elves, I'm definitely going to drop the 2nd Coven, as even without the nerfs on it, it wasn't a great expenditure of points.  Instead I'll either beef up my line or add a dedicated fast cav:

Option 1:  2 Slaves, 2 Lowblood, 1 Duskblades, 1 Coven, 2 Dusk Lords, Premeditation x 4

Option 2:  2 Slaves, 3 Lowblood, 1 Slave Takers, 1 Coven, 2 Dusk Lords, Premeditation x 4

Thoughts?


Quote
The advantage with Orcs is that you can use a whole wall of Goblin Skirmishers (fanatics).

Not a bad thought either.  Put 2 Crazed Gobbos on a collision course with the guys opposite the Slaves with normal goblins behind to exploit any hole that opens.  
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:46:10 pm by Hannibal » Logged

RushAss
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2011, 10:34:00 am »

With the Dark Elves, I'm definitely going to drop the 2nd Coven, as even without the nerfs on it, it wasn't a great expenditure of points.  Instead I'll either beef up my line or add a dedicated fast cav:

Option 1:  2 Slaves, 2 Lowblood, 1 Duskblades, 1 Coven, 2 Dusk Lords, Premeditation x 4

Option 2:  2 Slaves, 3 Lowblood, 1 Slave Takers, 1 Coven, 2 Dusk Lords, Premeditation x 4

Thoughts?
For what you are doing, I like option #2 better.  Since you are standing and shooting, it's relatively easy for your opponents to avoid the Duskblades.  The Slave Takers are excellent at taking advantage of an opponent's mistakes or zipping around behind your line to provide backup where needed.

If you really want to be a jerk, try Option 3: 2 Slaves, 2 Lowblood, 1 Drake Riders, 1 Coven, 2 Dusk Lords, Premeditation x 4
 
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Hannibal
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2011, 12:46:21 pm »

Quote
For what you are doing, I like option #2 better.  Since you are standing and shooting, it's relatively easy for your opponents to avoid the Duskblades.  The Slave Takers are excellent at taking advantage of an opponent's mistakes or zipping around behind your line to provide backup where needed

Good point.  Option 2 it is.


Quote
If you really want to be a jerk, try Option 3: 2 Slaves, 2 Lowblood, 1 Drake Riders, 1 Coven, 2 Dusk Lords, Premeditation x 4

I actually drew up that list, but with the stamped changes to flying rules they require quite a bit of planning to use right.  Otherwise they become dead points.  And I haven't played DE enough to feel comfortable with them just yet.
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