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Author Topic: Fantasy Factions?  (Read 376 times)
gornhorror
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« on: December 12, 2011, 08:33:01 pm »

Can somebody tell me what FANTASY factions are being considered right now?  It seems to me that the trend is to create historical factions as of late.  While they are nice, I think it would be a mistake to ignore the fantasy factions.  I think there have been some good suggestions on the boards such as Kobolds, Evil Dwarves, Spellcasters, etc.  I think they should be looked into further.  I know I would want some more fantasy factions created before the powers that be create any more historicals.  Sorry if this upsets anybody, but I wouldn't want this game to turn into historical heavy game. At least for me, it would kinda take some of the fun out of it.
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Kevin
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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2011, 08:49:13 pm »

The Wuxing Empire got the green light from Chad this past summer, and is pretty far along in development (though Hannibal, the lead developer, recently quit...at least temporarily).  While it has a bit of historical flavor (based on ancient China), the Wuxing is absolutely a fantasy faction.  Most of their units are animated statues!

Wuxing will come out after Alexander vs. Persia (which had completed playtesting by Spring 2011), but probably before any other historical.  My guess, and this is only a guess, is that historicals will alternate wtih Fantasy.  After Wuxing, we'll likely see Spanish/Aztecs, then another (as-yet-undetermined) fantasy.

------------------

It's also possible that, after Spanish/Aztecs, the historical double-set well will run dry and it will be back to all fantasy (or maybe historical single sets).  Most historical double-sets are only interesting in a clash-of-civilizations sense.  Doing England vs. France wouldn't work, as units would be too similar.  Even Hannibal's Crusaders vs. Arabs--probably the best bet for another double-set after Spanish-Aztecs--suffers somewhat from this.  And many historical armies have too few unit types to make a full faction.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 11:21:53 pm by Kevin » Logged

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Hannibal
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2011, 12:54:26 am »

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It's also possible that, after Spanish/Aztecs, the historical double-set well will run dry and it will be back to all fantasy (or maybe historical single sets). 

I personally think that well will run dry pretty dang quick too.  The limitation on historicals is that they tend to be kind of similar.  Look at Rome vs Carthage: the two contemporary armies are pretty dang similar to each other.  We really stretched making Alexander vs Persia different, but that's simply not going to be possible all the time.

One of the suggestions I made to Chad about the historical Mercenaries set was Greece between the Persian Wars and its conquest by Phillip of Macedon.  During this period, Greek city states fought numerous wars against each other in a menagerie of shifting alliances.  Starting with Sparta's victory in the Peloponnesean War, the pattern was:  1) hegemony by one city state fights a coalition of city-states 2) coalition wins, and soon a 'first among equals' city-state becomes the hegemon, 3) new hegemon fights a coalition of previous allies plus any former hegemons.  The only constant was Persia, who kept funding the coalition against the established power of the day. 

This period saw a lot of Greeks being exiled as their faction was ousted.  Part time soldiers became full time mercenaries and fought for other Greeks, the Persians, the Egyptians, even in places like Carthage.

This would be a terribly boring two-army set, as you'd have a lot of very similar units.  Even as a lone faction it'd have a lot of phalanx infantry, which'd make it pretty dull.  However, as a mercenary faction, that'd be okay because like Monsters & Mercs it'd be meant to be Mercs first and a stand alone faction second.  Each unit would be a different cadre from a different city-state (Athenians, Thebans, Spartiates, etc).

(btw, Chad gave me to okay to mention this, so I'm not spilling state secrets or anything).


Quote
Even Hannibal's Crusaders vs. Arabs--probably the best bet for another double-set after Spanish-Aztecs--suffers somewhat from this.

Yup.  Not much you can do about it either.  The Kingdom of Jerusalem is probably the most varied 'knights in armor' faction you'll get unless you go with a late Hundred Years War or Early Renaissance faction.  Which might shade into Hawkshold at that point.  Most feudal armies (England, France, etc.) will be pretty similar and not have enough units.  Jerusalem allows to differentiate the units because they drew from so many different groups.  But in truth its a bit of a stretch (the effectiveness of Templars & Hospitallers is probably the same), and even then it's still a close and hose cavalry army.


Quote
And many historical armies have too few unit types to make a full faction.

Which is why I think most historical themes will get translated into a fantasy setting.  It provides more freedom in creating the units and making stuff up. 

But fear not, I think there are potential ideas out there.  I think the Amazons would make a very good fantasy faction.  I also think a Celtic/Viking type barbarian faction is also promising.
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iamJMAN00793
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2011, 02:52:16 am »

One of the suggestions I made to Chad about the historical Mercenaries set was Greece between the Persian Wars and its conquest by Phillip of Macedon.  During this period, Greek city states fought numerous wars against each other in a menagerie of shifting alliances.  Starting with Sparta's victory in the Peloponnesean War, the pattern was:  1) hegemony by one city state fights a coalition of city-states 2) coalition wins, and soon a 'first among equals' city-state becomes the hegemon, 3) new hegemon fights a coalition of previous allies plus any former hegemons.  The only constant was Persia, who kept funding the coalition against the established power of the day. 

This period saw a lot of Greeks being exiled as their faction was ousted.  Part time soldiers became full time mercenaries and fought for other Greeks, the Persians, the Egyptians, even in places like Carthage.

This would be a terribly boring two-army set, as you'd have a lot of very similar units.  Even as a lone faction it'd have a lot of phalanx infantry, which'd make it pretty dull.  However, as a mercenary faction, that'd be okay because like Monsters & Mercs it'd be meant to be Mercs first and a stand alone faction second.  Each unit would be a different cadre from a different city-state (Athenians, Thebans, Spartiates, etc).


This would bee really cool. I was hopping that there would be a Greek faction, but I was afraid it would be to hard to come up with another army to come with them in a duel pack. Please make this happen!
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Hannibal
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2011, 12:52:56 pm »

I think Chad is pretty committed to doing it, which is one of the reasons I haven't posted up my first draft.  (The other, more important, is that doing so would let the cat out of the bag as to what we did with phalanxes, something you'll get to see when Alexander s Persia is released).

It had been my original hope that Chad would okay releasing this as a double set of historical mercenaries, with the Catalan Company as the second army in the pack.  This would break from the 'head to head' theme that had been done at that point, but the idea was that the very popular Greeks would 'carry' the Catalans.  This is a familiar pattern with Rome & Carthage and Alexander & Persia, where one very popular faction (Rome & Alexander) subsidize a less popular but equally interesting faction.

Chad gave that idea the reality check it deserved (I knew in my heart of hearts that it probably wasn't a good idea, but man how I wanted it to be otherwise), and nixed the Catalan Company.

The catch, of course, is time.  BGFW is a small game run part time now and so there isn't a lot of spare time & finances.  However, when the time comes, I'll be happy to send on my notes to whomever is interested in taking lead on the project.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 12:56:53 pm by Hannibal » Logged

RushAss
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2011, 05:37:34 pm »

I like the logic behind the Historical Mercenaries, but the overall idea just doesn't give me a chubby like the thought of more fantasy factions.  I do like the idea of giving historical style factions a fantasy spin.  That way you could still do things like Amazons, Egyptians, Vikings/Celts, etc...  Other fantasy factions I've seen bandied about recently have been Brook's Deep Dwarves and several Insect faction proposals.
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gull2112
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2011, 10:47:12 pm »

When you come right down to it, the units don't really vary that much. What makes a faction truly unique is its faction specific command cards and its faction abilities. When somebody is introducing a new faction I usually don't get too hung up on the unit specifics, what I wonder about is the cards and abilities.

It would be interesting to come up with a generic army and just play with a certain faction's abilities and cards. You could even play something like Orcs v High Elves, but both use the Lizardmen deck, or grey hawk, or whatever.
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Hannibal
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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2011, 02:55:18 am »

Quote
When you come right down to it, the units don't really vary that much. What makes a faction truly unique is its faction specific command cards and its faction abilities.

I'm going to disagree with you there.  When I started really wrapping my head around game design, I was amazed at the subtly of the BGFW system, and how it has units feels very different with only minor changes.  Literally tweaking a box here and there produced very, very different results.  When combined with shifting around what is Core and Standard and such, you can really make armies feel very different with similarly seeming units.

I banged out another home brew faction just yesterday based on this very idea.  When I get the time tomorrow, I'll post it up.
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gull2112
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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 02:04:50 pm »

I will grant you that. Being based on a die six, one point of difference is magified v D20 systems. My point is that the similarities are more along the lines of needing a fast mover, needing a spear and a sword unit, needing some missile units, etc. I am also not saying that this is a bad thing. I guess where I was going with this was that you could have the same armies facing each other and if you had different faction abilities they would play differently.

I do whole heartedly agree with you that BG has a lot of subtle yet profound variations that make for an excellent game system. (insert large corrida style fans screaming "Viva Chad!", "Viva Chad!", "Viva Chad!"). Grin
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