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Author Topic: Stinky Battlefield-Lizard Men Playtest in a 4000 point game vs. Orcs and Undead  (Read 525 times)
RushAss
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« on: November 23, 2011, 02:39:45 pm »

On this hot Summer Day, the field of battle reeked with the stench of massive lizards, unwashed goblins, and the scent of the dead.  And do I even need to mention mountains of Triceratops Poo?

3 of us got together Friday night and decided to give a couple of the proposed rules some testing in a big battle.  Hopefully this game will serve as a Thanksgiving feast of information.  Or at least a feast of large, dead units…

1 – Lizardmen Fury proposal.  Offensive command cards may now be played on the same turn that Fury is activated.

2 – Special control.  A unit on a permanent close standing order may be directly controlled for 3 command actions.  This also applies to Triceratops Herds which normally cannot be direct controlled.

We had 4000 points per side playing on an extended map with deployment zones allowing for 12 units with the usual 5 inches of additional space on the flanks.  I think I had my camera on the wrong setting when taking these pics and I couldn’t tell just how bad they where on the little preview screen.  I was never much of a photographer anyways and I apologize for the blurriness and must make this up to you fine folks by being very descriptive.  Ay Carumba!



Lizardmen played by Yours truly.
Note that I chose to take 7 command actions per turn instead of 8.  I’ve been doing this for a while when controlling 4000 point armies and it feels right.

Front rank top to bottom:
2 Triceratops Herds
2 Trog Warriors
Swarmling Warriors
Tyrant Warriors
Trog Warriors
Swarmling Warriors
2 Trog Warriors
2 Triceratops Herds

Rear rank from top to bottom:
Raptor Pack
Hatchlings
Hatchlings
T-Rex (The Bane of All Cavalry)

This is close to being a symmetrical set up, but I figured it would be a solid build.  Lately I prefer putting large/colossal units toward the outside of the line because it makes them slightly more difficult to concentrate ranged fire on with the added benefit that most large units fare well against cavalry. 

The Opposition (Orcs played by Brook, Undead played by none other than Chris)
Front rank top to bottom:
Goblin Spearmen
2 Orc Spearmen
Goblin Spearmen
Orc Swordsmen (Brook was pointing at them thinking they would achieve greatness)
2 Ghoul Packs
2 Skeleton Trolls
Death Knights

Rear rank from top to bottom:
Goblin Bowmen
2 Goblin Bomb Chukkers
Goblin Bowmen
2 Ghoul Packs
Swarm of Rats(!)
Skeleton Cavalry

I think my opponents handed me a step up with this build and deployment.  Brook had a good stand and shoot army while Chris had a good close and hose army.  The problem was that the combination was awkward for them at best.  Chris chose to close and engage while Brook chose to sit still and shoot with the exception of the Orc Swordsmen, so this made life easier on me.  The other thing that really helped was that Chris fielded a bunch of Ghoul Packs.  Ghoul Packs are TERRIBLE against Lizardmen!  Even a Swarmling is practically guaranteed to fight most of the battle with +1 attack dice and +2 courage due to the Blood Frenzy. 



Standing orders where easy for me, good old fashioned close!  Both Swarmlings where capped at 3.5.  The Undead also closed, but part of their line slid to their right to engage many of my line units so he could avoid his Death Knights being potentially trampled by a Trike Herd and thusly set up a two’s company scenario (and perhaps a pinch) against my T-Rex which would yield lots of damage on the charge turn.  Brook targeted both Chukkers and one of his Bowmen on my outer-most Trike Herd while the Swarmlings closest to him where targeted by his other Bowmen.  The rest of the Orc line remained on hold with the exception of the rather blood thirsty Orc Swordsmen.

The lines closed and as you can see the Undead did their little shift dance.  Brook direct controlled the Orc Swordsmen to keep them out of trouble, but that would lead to trouble for the Undead line in the future.  The Bomb Chukkers got to work and as expected, the targeted Trike Herd broke and ran as soon as it was put into the yellow.  Both Trike Herds crashed into the Skeleton Trolls on my left and all combatants involved inflicted reasonable damage on each other IIRC.  The Ghoul Pack that engaged the Trogs you see next to my Trike Herd with the die on them blew their courage check and ran for the hills.

For the record, most of the units on my front line had Fury applied by the time they engaged, as well as the Raptor Pack.



1 full turn later we arrive at the above pic, which was taken at the end of my opponent’s turn.  I’ll start from the top and work my way down.  The cowardly Trike Herd has been reformed while the Raptor Pack closes on Goblin Spearmen who realize now that they won’t be getting all of those sexy spear bonuses after all.  The chukkers continue to fire on the reformed Trike Herd, but don’t do much due to extreme range.  I think one of them miss-fired this turn.  One of the Bowmen start shooting at the other Trike Herd for little or no damage. 

The Orc Swordsmen flank charge a unit of my Trogs which had pinched 1 of Chris’s Ghoul Packs into oblivion after it failed its pre-combat courage check.  This Trog used Fury along with a command card for that attack which did that final point of damage to force the 2nd route check on the Ghouls at a 7, which they failed.  Play test score!  Another Ghoul Pack blew its courage check so off it ran.  The hole that opened in the Undead line the previous turn from Ghoul cowardice permitted a unit of Trogs to pinch a Skeleton Troll unit and they where demolished.  High comedy ensued when they where replaced by a Swarm of Rats which took a turn longer to kill than it should have.  Why?  Because a Wave of Terror was played and that Trike Herd failed the fear check.  Speaking of courage failures, you will notice the Trike Herd that should have been next to the T-Rex is gone.  That’s because it blew its first courage check on my turn and the Skeleton Trolls it was engaged with mopped up on my opponent’s turn.  There was fun to be had with the T-Rex as it looked like it was going to have to deal with both cavalry units at the same time.  I seriously thought about blowing the 3 command actions on my following turn to back it up a bit and delay the engagement.  This would have been very un-T-Rex like as Brook pointed out, but I would be delaying 700 points worth of units so it was certainly something worth considering.  On a side note, most of my command card play was on Triceratops Herds.  Not that it was helping much because they kept running away…



The above pic was taken at the end of my opponent’s turn again.  We have a lot going on here.  As usual, we’ll start from the top!  The Raptor Pack rammed into the Goblin Spearmen and both exchanged about equal damage.  Brook switched the targeting of both Bomb Chukkers to the Trike Herd that was about to ram into his Orc Spearmen and they bombed it into the yellow.  I was quite thrilled when they actually passed their courage check!  So I gleefully rammed them into the Spearmen where they where put into the red and true to form they routed.  Dead Trike Herd #2. 

The area towards the middle of the map was getting gummed up and my Tryants where cock blocked (term registered trademark of Kevin) while the Orc Swordsmen where pinched.  However, said pinch barely did any damage while the Orc Swordsmen finished off the Trogs in front of them.  I direct controlled the Swarmlings to the right of the Orcs to have them start closing on the Orc/Goblin line.  Ghoul Packs where reformed.  Trogs where steadily grinding down their Ghoulish opponents.  You will notice yet another vacancy where a Trike Herd once was.  The Swarm of Rats finally died when Trogs pinched in on my turn, but their dying gasp destroyed the final green box on the Trike Herd and you know the rest of the story.  Failed courage check, Skeleton Trolls clean up on the Undead turn before I can reform them.  Ay Carumba! 

But as the gods of courage where biting me hard, they would soon bite back at my opponents.  I had an Accuracy in hand along with a couple of command cards I deemed disposable, so I decided to take a chance and let the T-Rex ram the Death Knights.  I figured that at least both units won’t get to benefit from charge turn bonuses/impact hits on the same turn this way and I was guaranteed to keep the T-Rex in the green at least for this turn.  The Knights actually blew their pre-combat fear check, so their damage was minimal.  I needed 5s and 5s with the Accuracy and I managed to put the Death Knights into the yellow.  Praise be to Sha’la Queen of all reptiles, they blew their courage check!  The return attack did 3 more damage and while the Knights passed their courage check and where still alive, I was ecstatic with this.  The following turn the Skeleton Cavalry charged in on the T-Rex flank, but didn’t do a lot of damage and the T-Rex stomped them in 2 combat turns.  Notice the way that it’s head is turned to the left as if in mild irritation Smiley



My apologies for the change in camera angle here, but I’m sure you can all figure it out.  Taken right at the end of my opponent’s turn right before final courage checks where rolled.   Starting to the right with the Orc/Goblin front, we see the Raptor Pack has fallen.  This is because one of the Chukkers started bombing it, along with one of the Goblin bowmen.  I am proud to say that the Raptor Pack stood firm, but they did have Fury and Blood Frenzy on their side.  In compensation, the Goblin Spearmen they where facing blew their courage check when put into the red by the Raptors dying effort.  Trogs smashed into Orc and Goblin Spearmen respectively.  The Orc Spearmen held up well and that fight was going to turn into a grinder, but the Goblin Spearmen where put into the yellow by some hot dice and command card play and they failed their courage check.  They died with a whimper.  Upset at being held out of the action for so long, The Tyrants pinched the Orc Swordsmen from the front and sent them to the Orcish afterlife, which I am told consists of an eternity of using supine Elven warriors for target practice.  Brook direct controlled his other Goblin Bowmen to reforem and back them up and had them start shooting the Swarmlings that where headed their way.  The Swarmlings went into the yellow and ran off. 

Things where going poorly for the Undead.  My Hatchlings where moving around to pinch a stubborn Ghoul Pack.  One of the reformed Ghoul Packs engaged the Trog unit closest to the T-Rex and died quickly.  Note to all Ghoul Packs when facing Lizard Men – Stay in your caves!  Blood Frenzy will kill you!  The remaining Skeleton Trolls where moving around the rear of my line looking to do dastardly things.  The Death Knights had a point healed (up to 2 red boxes now) and re-engaged the T-Rex, hoping to at least get it into the yellow.  Problem is, they failed their fear check so they only had 2 dice (outreached!) + their impact hit.  They did 1 damage, leaving the T-Rex with 1 green box remaining as they fell to the mighty one.



This pic was taken at the end of my turn which came right after my opponent’s turn.  The surviving Trike Herd is closing fast while Trogs pinch an Orc Spearman.  Hatchlings are close to Goblin Bowmen and Tyrants are on their way.  I didn’t bother reforming the fleeing Swarmlings.  I direct controlled my Hatchlings closest to the Skeleton Trolls to keep them out of final rush range and prep them to pinch when the Skeleton Trolls engaged my Trogs.  The T-Rex was about to gobble down another Ghoul Pack.  My opponents surrendered at this point.  They had some fight left on the Orcish side, but the green tide would have eventually won out.

Thoughts on the game

I had 2 things that really helped me here.  1 is that I had Lizard Men and 1 of my opponents was playing Undead with a lot of Ghoul Packs.  The other is that only half of the line advanced while the other half did the old stand and shoot.  If Chris would have brought a Giant Catapult or 2 and a bunch of Zombies I would have been in serious trouble. 

My courage for the Triceratops Herds was hideous, as I only succeeded in 1 of their courage rolls the entire game!  The rest of my units did well, though.  I recall only 2 courage failures from all the rest of my units.  OK, most of them had Fury and some had Blood Frenzy activated when they rolled, so that helped.  The Knights cheesing out on their first combat turn was stellar for me, so I was able to survive the Triceratops calamity.  For what it’s worth, there was only 1 Chukker miss-fire this game and the attack dice where in the normal range.  No outrageous 11 die attacks, but no 3 die attacks either.  All was well.

On a comical note, at the end of the game I had 6 command cards left in my deck.  Both of my Cold Blooded cards where in that six. 

Thoughts on the Fury fix

I triggered Fury on the same turn that I played a red command card on the applicable unit twice and both of those times this action gained me that 1 critical point to force a courage check.  It was pretty handy and it still didn’t feel too strong.  Note that in my first play test game with Brook this opportunity never arose.  In this game with a total of 8000 points on the map, it arose twice.  So it is a minor fix.  Which is just what was needed IMO.  I like the fix.

Thoughts on the Special Control rule

I never used it partially because my Trike Herds kept running off.  I was seriously considering it’s use on the T-Rex against those cavalry units. I chose not to use it in the end, but the fact that the option was there was pretty helpful to me.  I still think more play testing should be done on this.

Heroes of the Game

Orcs – The Swordsmen hands down.  They only killed a Trog and inflicted a point on a Swarmling unit, but they hung in their well and held up 3 of my units for longer than I liked.

Undead – I’m going with the Skeleton Trolls that killed 2 Triceratops Herds.  1 of them in a straight up fight!

Lizard Men – Would you be surprised if I elect the T-Rex?  It forced a couple of direct controls on the Undead cavalry units, then ate them both!  How is that for value?

Happy Thanksgiving folks!

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gull2112
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2011, 06:19:25 pm »

Great report! I don't have a lot of time as I have obligations for Yummagedon, but I must say that I really like the swirling action photo effects! Cheesy
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Zelc
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 09:46:09 pm »

T-Rexes love horses, even if they're dead Tongue.
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BubblePig
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Belkar Rules!!!


« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 11:24:08 pm »

Great report.  Smiley
My thought on the special control rule is that, much like the rule on off map final rushes, the threat of being able to do it will remove the incentive for 'gamey' tricks. If this turns out to be the case, in most circumstances it would not be worth doing most of the time. This play test result is exactly the type of result I was hoping for.
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Kevin
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 04:30:34 pm »

Nice report!  I like the extra details.  Smiley  Albeit it meant a few days before I had time to give the report proper attention.

The courage was very weird all around this game.  On the one hand, your T-Rex was dead meat if those Death Knights had hung around for that one turn and enabled the Skellie Cav. to pinch.  (You go so lucky!).  On the other hand, the cowardice of your Triceratops Herds certainly affected the game.  I can see an alternate outcome, however, where you mop up the catapults, then have to turn around to deal with the incoming cavlary & Skellie Trolls which have crushed your left flank...and I have no idea how that would've ended.

Agreed that the divided strategies helped you, though.  And in another topic, your poor Tyrants hardly saw any action!  Could you have done anything to prevent that?

As Ron says, the ability to do an action often has so large an effect that you don't need to do it.  (An example is the Lash/Spint.  Since the opponent knows you can speed your guys up to get a pinch, he has to be careful not to offer you a pinch just outside normal range, so he wastes some actions on direct controls and then your guys don't lash/sprint after all.)  Given that instead of a Special Control, you chose to play Rout Roulette (and won), it's hard to assess whether Special Control is on target or a bit too good.  Definitely more games are in order!

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RushAss
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2011, 11:00:22 am »

I figured that the T-Rex would have a reasonable shot to take the Death Knights with it and that wouldn't be a bad trade in my mind.  I remember that on the turn the T-Rex engaged the Knights that Chris only had 1 command card in his hand and since only 30% of the Undead command cards are defensive cards, I felt good about inflicting some damage with the Accuracy on the T-Rex since I'd be needing fives both to hit and damage.  That was still an amazing turn of events for me, though.

Agreed that the divided strategies helped you, though.  And in another topic, your poor Tyrants hardly saw any action!  Could you have done anything to prevent that?

I thought hard about direct controlling the Swarmlings closest to them so they could get into the action earlier, but I really wanted the speed of the smaller unit because I felt I should try to get to the Orc/Goblin line as quickly as possible.  It was a very difficult decision to make and I'm not sure if I made the right one in the end.

As Ron says, the ability to do an action often has so large an effect that you don't need to do it.  (An example is the Lash/Sprint.  Since the opponent knows you can speed your guys up to get a pinch, he has to be careful not to offer you a pinch just outside normal range, so he wastes some actions on direct controls and then your guys don't lash/sprint after all.)  Given that instead of a Special Control, you chose to play Rout Roulette (and won), it's hard to assess whether Special Control is on target or a bit too good.  Definitely more games are in order!

In hindsight, I'm not sure if this game is a great measuring stick for the Special Control thing.  3 command actions isn't that high of a price to pay when you get 7 command actions a turn!  I'm thinking that would feel a lot different with a 2000 or even 1500 point army where you basically blow all of your command actions to keep the big dummy from running off and getting himself killed.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 02:22:49 pm by Kevin » Logged

"Sunrise on the road behind, Sunset on the road ahead
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jungletoy
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« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2011, 02:12:23 pm »

Woot! T-rex FTW! That thing is devastating if you can control it. The non-integrated posture of the Orcs/Undead probably helped a little as well. I like the Lizardmen exclusively for the T-Rex engine. If you can get a consistent delivery platform into the enemy formation I think opponents will always struggle against the T-Rex.

- With the T-Rex in the mix, was there consideration for Ancients instead of Trikes? (I'm guessing this was to test control apsect).

 Grin
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RushAss
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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 04:20:53 pm »


- With the T-Rex in the mix, was there consideration for Ancients instead of Trikes? (I'm guessing this was to test control apsect).

I wanted Trikes because they would also be eligible for Special Control since they cannot be normally direct controlled.  Even without that consideration, I still probably would have gone with the 4 Trike Herds because they cost less and I wanted that big initial hit, which you normally don't get with Ancients.


I like the Lizardmen exclusively for the T-Rex engine

Try a different speed and field a Tyrant or two.  Not anywhere near as spectacular as the T-Rex in the horror department, but for a rock solid line guy that will grind their opponent into the dirt they are close to untouchable.  Think Dwarven Axemen on crack that tend to get BETTER as the fight drags on.  Sadly, you don't see them truly in action here.
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"Sunrise on the road behind, Sunset on the road ahead
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-Rush, Ghost Rider
gull2112
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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 08:34:34 pm »

Try a different speed and field a Tyrant or two.  Not anywhere near as spectacular as the T-Rex in the horror department, but for a rock solid line guy that will grind their opponent into the dirt they are close to untouchable.  Think Dwarven Axemen on crack that tend to get BETTER as the fight drags on.  Sadly, you don't see them truly in action here.

I always eye the tryrants when buying a Lizardmen army, but I always seem to go with trogs and ancients instead. Next time I will definitely "try a tyrant." Say that three times real fast. Cheesy
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Kevin
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 11:55:06 pm »

The new Fury rules definitely make Tyrants sexier!
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Zelc
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 02:01:47 am »

Tyrants and Ancients definitely get the biggest effect from this change.  Against a 2/2 defense unit, Tyrant Warriors have a 69% chance of dealing at least 2 damage on the charge, and a 54% chance of dealing at least 2 damage afterwards.  Ancients have an 80% chance of dealing at least 2 damage on the charge, and a 69% chance of dealing at least 2 damage afterwards.  Actually this change makes Ancients a decent breakthrough unit with a 47% chance of dealing 4+ damage on the charge with Fury.
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