Faction Power Groupings

[Zelc]

I figure we’ve had enough discussions about relative faction strengths, so I figure I might as well throw down my thoughts on relative faction strengths.  A few notes:

• This is just my opinion and is not in any way authoritative.  A lot of these are my impressions of the faction and doesn’t necessarily reflect playtesting experience.
• This doesn’t mean that factions ranked as lower in power can’t beat factions ranked higher in power.  Factions ranked lower in power might have a favorable matchup against a faction ranked higher in power.
• This isn’t an attempt to get the best factions nerfed, or buff the worst factions.  In every competitive game, there will be factions that are better and worse than the average.

This is with the current set of rules as was used in Council.

Factions are listed in alphabetical order within each group.

Very Strong

• Dark Elves – This faction has a great selection of tanks, speedbumps, infantry units, and cavalry.  Their ranged attack power is absolutely fantastic with the Witching Hour curse.  It has many good options for breakthrough units between Duskblades, Blade Dancers, Lashmistresses, Lord of Dusk, and Dusk Lances.  It also has a lot of shenanigans in Lashmistresses, Drake Riders, and Coven.  As downsides, they don’t have a good answer to 6-skill offense units and suffer greatly if their shenanigans are mitigated.  Also, they have problems in an archery fight because they can’t shield their shooters.  While they have their bad matchups, this is probably the strongest faction in the game as it stands.
  

Strong

• Carthage – Libyan Foot and Elephants make great breakthrough units, and skirmishers and Gallic Warriors are great speed bumps and tanks.  With Foresight, they can get the Libyan Foot and Elephants matched up in favorable fights.  Between Skirmishers and Numidian Cavalry, Carthage has lots of ways to mitigate your opponent’s shenanigans.  However, most of their units pay for front-loaded damage which is a waste of points if those units need to stall more than win their fights.  The faction has to get good matchups or it wastes a ton of points.  Also, they often can’t deal with units with good defenses that cost over 300 points.  Their cavalry is cheap but highly ineffective in a fight and isn’t a good value compared to similarly-costed cavalry in other factions.
  
  
• High Elves – This faction has great defenses across the board and lots of different offensive profiles.  It’s easily one of the strongest factions.  However, this faction really suffers from variance.  If it had Cold Blooded and Defy Fate instead of Oathbound and Deadly Strike, I could probably make the case that this faction belongs in the “Very Strong” category.  It also suffers from not having a good line infantry unit between 187 and 299 points (Rangers don’t count), and no speed bump units.
  
  
• Orcs – The Orcs have a stout line and great options for breakthrough units in Axemen and Marauders (perhaps one of the best breakthrough units, since dice is often the limiting constraint on how fast you can kill speed bumps).  There are several factions that have lots of trouble against a 2/3 defense line.  However, they don’t have many options for tanks.  Crazed Goblins charge themselves into combat and thus tend to die much faster than Peasant Mobs, and Goblin Raiders are much more expensive than Militia but have worse tanking stats.
  
  
• Ravenwood – This faction has a pretty good range of infantry, and a bunch of units that are extremely difficult for the opposing player to deal with.  Stag Cavalry, Centaurs, Archers, Bowmasters, and Treants can all make a lot of trouble for your opponent.  Even the Nets ability can swing a fight in your favor and create a hole in your opponent’s line that he isn’t prepared to deal with.  Finally, Ravenwood also has the best offensive checkmark ability in the game.  However, the faction’s line units can be unreliable.  Ravenwood Swordsmen are really bad against units with 6-skill offense and have less life than comparable units in other factions (plus they cost more).  Bear Packs require the not-so-stellar Bearkin and really suffer from opponents playing Force and Might.  Wolfkin are pretty expensive for a 2/1 tank, although they can hold up enemies for a lot longer if they rout on the opponent’s turn.  Because the faction doesn’t have a Courage-boosting or Courage reroll card, the line’s flakiness is a huge weakness.
  
  
• Rome – Like Carthage, Rome has great breakthrough units in Veteran Principes and Italian Swordsmen.  Unlike Carthage, Rome also has cheap tanks in Hastati, 3/2 defense Triarii, one of the best spearmen in the game, and a 2/2 defense unit at 200 points.  Rome’s cavalry is better and cheaper than Carthage’s cavalry, although they still can’t be expected to win a fight.  On the other hand, Rome has a higher point density and don’t have a 6-power unit to break through 3-defense units.  They don’t have Foresight to get the best matchups.  In longer fights, they can deal with high-toughness units with repeated Replacements, but this is expensive both in points (costs 348 points for 2x Italian Swordsmen) and Command Actions.  Rome also doesn’t have fast breakthrough units.  Finally, Rome’s courage is dicey, especially around the end-game when backup units can’t be found.
  
  
• Umenzi – This faction has great line units (which is good, because that’s pretty much all it has!).  Possessed are fantastic speed bumps, Initiates are great “Militia”-level speed bumps, Javelineers are fantastic against normal line units, Beserkers are great matched up against weak units, and Chosen can be expected to win their fight against almost any other line unit.  Shamans provide some minor but very much appreciated blesses and hexes, along with healing a few points of damage.  Also, the Giant War Elephant always has to be accounted for.  Their problem is they don’t have any units faster than 3.5” at reasonable prices, which opponents really should take advantage of.
  

Average

• Dwarves – For their points, the units are very tough in combat.  Rune of Uruz is fantastic on breakthrough units since it can be the difference between winning in 2 turns and winning in 3.  However, they don’t have a lot of high skill guys and they’re really slow.
  
  
• Hawkshold – They have a good mix of units of all types.  They really suffer from not having a normal-speed strong infantry unit.  Also, while their Swordsmen and Spearmen have more green boxes counterpart linemen in other factions, they have less green+yellow boxes.
  
  
• Monsters and Mercenaries – Their selection of normal infantry units is extremely limited and they have to deal with all kinds of drains on Command Actions.  However, unlike the Lizardmen, their 200-point line units have 2/3 defense and their 140-point speed bumps have a courage boosting ability.  Despite being stupid, Ogres are much more affordable than Tyrants.  They also have a better selection of large units, including ones that can be direct controlled.  I think Monsters and Mercenaries barely makes the bottom of the Average pack.
  

Weak

• Lizardmen – IMO all of their Hatchlings, Swarmlings, Trogs, Tyrants, Bowmen, and Raptor Packs are overcosted, probably by around 3%.  Their line units just suck at tanking for their points, and can't be expected to win their matchups very quickly. Their heavy units are great, but are Ancients have the green/red health box issue and Trike Herds and T-Rexes can be shenaniganed.  They don’t have a good way of dealing with high evade defenses.
  
  
• Undead – They suffer from speed discrepancies and don’t have a good breakthrough unit against high-skill factions.  Death Knights are very touchy and can die very easily.  Besides them, the only reasonable breakthrough unit in this faction is the Skeleton Trolls, and they have trouble against units with good power and units with high evade defense.  Their cheap units are pretty good, but they can’t be expected to win the fight for you.
  

[Kevin]

Basically agree, but I'd keep Carthage, Rome, and Umenzi in "strong" and slide High Elves, Ravenwood Elves, and Orcs down to "Average."  (Or maybe down a half-step to "above average".)  

Each of these has its weakness.  High Elves have a hell of a time going 9 wide, and even 8 is a tall order.  And they have no real answer to impact hits.  They also have no morale reroll cards other than the pathetic Oathbound.  So they roll lots of rout checks at a 12 or 11 and sooner or later one fails.

Orcs lack a light unit that isn't stupid, and the regular goblins hit decently, but die quickly.  Sort of the opposite of what you'd like.

Ravenwood lacks a single card that will help prevent you routing.  Aspect of Wolf will still leave a hole in your line if it happens on the opponent turn.  It also suffers, big time, from lack of any 6-skill infantry.  (The only things with 6 skill are archers & Centaurs.)

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Oh, and a quick correction:  Hawkshold (green + yellow), at 5+2,  is very typical.  Baseline for units is 4 green, 3 yellow, 3 red.

[Niko White]

I agree much more with Zelc than Kevin, esp. on the High Elves.  They do have a sort of restricted selection but what's there is great and Maneuver Mastery is bonkers.  Everyone has weaknesses, even the Dark Elves and Historicals (for example DEs don't have anyone that can really stand up to a 6/5 attacker for any length of time, and have even larger problems with impact hits than the HEs because they're all 1 toughness except the halfblood levy).

I do think M&M, Lizardmen, and Undead have the largest problems right now.  Worth noting: all of the most respected factions have defense skill equal to or greater than toughness, and all of the least respected have difficulty getting access to 6 skill.  IMO this speaks to a combination of game rules favoring high defense skill and current faction selection being a bit too full of 3/x's and 2/1's, a prime reason I want to make another good high toughness faction.  Also I just had an idea - to the Rules Team forum!

Just gonna note a bit about my least favorite factions:

Lizardmen - Basically agreed with Zelc.  Raptors are awesome, but the big problem with them IMO is that they don't have a unit that wins a fight in a hurry that doesn't cost disgusting amounts of points.  If both sides plan on a grinding line fight the lizardmen are pretty much always going to win said grinder, but that's just not a very good plan right now, so usually they've brought a giant inevitable sledgehammer to a gunfight.

Monsters and Mercenaries - Man, does it suck to have to use 1 command action per unit just to get your courage to adequate.  Also only the Dragons and comedy option Hydra have six skill.  Also nothing in the faction wins fights quickly except maybe ogres and things that cost 500+.  Also wildmen are awful.  Oh, they also suffer from being rather balanced towards boring stand and shoot builds.  (Or perhaps more accurately, rout and shoot.)  But this is also probably my worst faction, and I kind of love them anyway, sort of like an endearingly ugly and charmingly stupid housepet.

Undead - The record will show that I loathe the undead, fluff wise.  Also everything Zelc said is right.

[RushAss]

Great, great thread Bohan!  Well thought out and well done.

First of all Battleground is a great game because even the "worst" factions can be competative in most situations.


Very Strong

• Dark Elves - I agree that these guys are very strong, but there is a learning curve.  They are a pure finesse faction so the better the player, the stronger they become.  Strong command deck and Pain Touch is also pretty sweet.
  
  
• High Elves – Another finesse faction.  Above average courage across the board and command card help in that regard as well.  This faction maneuvers extremely well.  Their downfall is that it's tough to fit all the guys you want into your budget.  They also have what I consider to be the strongest command deck in the game.
  
  
• Carthage – Bohan has got this nailed down pretty well.  In addition to his comments, I also like the Scutarii a lot for the points.  And Numidians can be stupidly annoying for the points.  Even with the nerf Pila are pretty strong.  Great command deck.
  

Strong

• Orcs – Great variety of units and the pure ability of this faction to inflict damage is impressive.  The Lash can be a dangerous ability, allowing the Orc player to get his units into advantageous positions.  Not for the defensive minded and that's for sure!  Their downfall is courage, which I consider to be one of the most important stats in the game.  Blowing a courage check can be the worst thing that can happen to you in this game and the Orcs are woefully good at it.  The command deck is all-out aggression.
  
  
• Rome – What keeps this army from being great is that they need a certain synergy to their deployment and the units don't work well individually.  Truly a team effort group.  Decent command deck.
  
  
• Umenzi – Again, Bohan pretty much nails it.  The over all cheapness of the core units allows for bigger goodies in the Chosen and War Elephant.  Spell casting can really annoy opponents.  I only disagree with Bohan about the Initiates, which are terrible IMO.  I'm no fan of the JV squad.  The command deck is blah IMO, but Faith Armor is easily one of the best faction abilities in the game.
  

Average

• Ravenwood – This faction has the broadest unit variety of any faction.  Their archery is excellent and Spirit Guidance only makes it better.  This is also the most mobile faction in the game.  Bohan is correct about the courage issue, but at least none of the units aside from the Wolves have sucky courage.  Their command cards can be sticky to play from time to time.
  
  
• Dwarves – Our group theorizes that once engaged, Dwarven units are better point-for-point than any other unit.  Nobody tanks better accross the board.  The trick is not to get out-maneuvered or get bogged down in terrain.  Sadly, this happens a lot to the stumpies.  Bohan raises a good point at the lack of 6 offensive skill units.  You pay through the nose for the guys with 6 offensive skill.  While the command deck is not overwhelming, it is incredibly useful as 1/3 of the entire deck boosts courage.
  
  
• Hawkshold – Great unit variety, but I agree with others that having their best infantry units be slow hurts them.  Outstanding variety of cavalry units.  The command deck is blah, but some of the cards are versitile so that's nice.  Bravery is not a sexy faction ability by any means, but it helps prevent disasters from occurring.
  
  
• Monsters and Mercenaries – Bohan and Niko are right.  A strong argument van be made for putting these guys in the weak category.  Constructing an army can be difficult due to the huge disparity in unit costs and different movement classes.  Annoying courage issues in the lesser units.  Good command deck.
  
  
• Undead – I think you got this one wrong IMO.  This is by no means a weak faction.  Not the strongest mind you, but not weak.  They have amazing unit variety.  And they have the best unit for it's job in the game point-for-point in the Zombies.  And they are core!  Truly they won't win any fights, but the Undead can afford to flood the map with cheap guys and still bring multiple hammers.  Also, 5/6 of the available units will never route.  See my comments in Orcs above for my thoughts on that.  Scary command deck.
  

Weak

• Lizardmen – Yeah, these guys are at the bottom of my list as well.  You pay a heavy fee to bring 6 offensive skill guys and both of them have their flaws.  Disparity in movement classes can be an issue.  Some guys are over priced IMO.  I must say that Trogs are a pretty good 200-ish point bread and butter unit.  Fury is one of the weakest faction abilities, but Frenzy can be surprisingly good.  Decent command deck.
  
  

Death Knights are very touchy and can die very easily.

Huh?  What?  Any cavalry unit can die quickly if it gets itself pinched or tries to steamroll a smasher unit in a straight-up fight, but if you use these guys decently they take a rediculous amount of time to die.  3 Command actions is a lot to spend to heal these dudes, but it may just be worth it.  Especially if they are about to charge into a fresh victim.  3/4 defense on the charge makes them nearly untouchable.  Their weakness is that they actually have to roll for route checks, but their courage is still good.

[jungletoy]

I've got to ask, is this order based on playing all factions with the same basic strategy or by playing them per design and exploiting unorthodox tactics that play to each factions semantics?

For example:
Player A (any faction) is unimaginative and builds a stand and shoot static defense. I (Lizardmen) split my force (2000pts) with a T-Rex on the left side sitting on the back line. And the rest of the force on the far right. Of course there is a lot of trickery in the deployment/orders phase but the basic goal is two deadly factions, a clock and denial of concentrated indirect fire. Controlling the T-rex is a little problematic but you start him further back to allow your line units to arrive first. I only have to defend 3 sides (2 technically) with the controllable group and march them up the right side of the board and turn in on a oblique. I have now exploited the FH arc giving the opponent a choice the red pill or the blue pill. The lizards strength is speed or in terms of combat, disruptive to formation forming. Masterfully deployed objectives that invite final rush at the expense of a broken and fully exploitable formation is the goal. The T-Rex says nom nom to cavalry while failed fear and route checks break down defense. The clock the opponent has to worry about is where to plink with indirect and can he can race effectively to kill one or the other before one or the other perform an alimentary canal exam on him.

Archer: "Hey is that a T-Rex behind us?"
Other Archer: "Yes but we can't shoot him unless the General spends some command points to reorient us. Besides we're tearing up their line infantry pretty good  aaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, mommy!"

I like the Lizard men for speed, shock and disruption. I can dictate tempo and board control with their speed and get to flanks and edges must faster. If you play them like other factions they're sucktastic but if you play them to their strengths and use formation disruptive tactics through well planned Close objectives they can be extremely effective. I don't think anyone wants a T-Rex in their backfield but it makes for a hilarious visual...

A long way to say I think all races are pretty much equal under my above premise of playing to each factions strengths. I've seen little glimpses of tactical advantages that are available to each faction but playing standard military doctrine vs. the rule set exploitation is going to cause some races to fail while others succeed. As with anything you still have to play it out and the fickle nature of dice ensures invocation of the  "Any given Sunday" clause...
 

[Niko White]

In general Zelc's talking about pretty ruthless tournament play; this was originally in the rules team forum IIRC, because he was mostly talking about very fine balance issues.  Even the "bad" factions are pretty much fine in normal play and can win even tournament games and so forth.  I wouldn't worry about it.

[BubblePig]

I wouldn't worry about it either. Notice that even the veteran players cannot agree 100% on how they rate the factions, and my personal ratings are different than those shared already. I think Rome in particular is not getting the respect they deserve, among others. I am not at all convinced someone is not going to find a tactic with one of the less respected factions that will kick some butt and change the pecking order again.

[gull2112]

• Orcs – Great variety of units and the pure ability of this faction to inflict damage is impressive.  The Lash can be a dangerous ability, allowing the Orc player to get his units into advantageous positions.  Not for the defensive minded and that's for sure!  Their downfall is courage, which I consider to be one of the most important stats in the game.  Blowing a courage check can be the worst thing that can happen to you in this game and the Orcs are woefully good at it.  The command deck is all-out aggression.
  
  

That morale thing is your personal bias. I rarely ever have morale problems. You may have noticed at council that MY Orcs didn't break and run as a general rule. The problem is not that Orc courage is too low, but that you roll to high.


PS - our games were some of the highpoints of my BG career. It was so cool too actually throw down with my bro' from NJ!

[Zelc]

I've got to ask, is this order based on playing all factions with the same basic strategy or by playing them per design and exploiting unorthodox tactics that play to each factions semantics?

I assumed good strategic play (deployment and strategic-level maneuvering) in my rankings.  For instance, if I assumed the factions just lined up and came at each other, Carthage, Rome, and Umenzi shoot up to Very Strong, M&M drops down to Weak, etc.

this was originally in the rules team forum IIRC, because he was mostly talking about very fine balance issues.

Actually, I originally had it in that forum because the issue of "tier lists" are controversial in some communities.  I also didn't want to scare newer people off from playing different factions.  I think the factions are fairly close in power (see how many factions are in Strong, for instance), but there definitely seems to be some variance.

On Ravenwood:
So I'll admit I haven't actually played the Ravenwood army, but I'm surprised people have such a low opinion of it.  I agree their line has problems with courage, but this can be mitigated with strategic maneuvering, back-up units, using Bearkin/Bear Packs, or just forcing earlier rout checks on your opponent with archery.  On the other hand, their power units are top-notch and are a real pain to deal with.  Against high evade factions, both archery and Centaurs are very strong options.  I think Ravenwood matches up very well against the other powerful factions, including Dark Elves, Carthage, Rome, Umenzi, Orcs, and High Elves.  Granted, this is all theorycraft so maybe I'm missing something.


By the way, I find the best defense vs. Impact Hits is to have a high Evade, because usually units with Impact Hits have power stats that get ridiculous on the Charge anyway.

[RushAss]

PS - our games were some of the highpoints of my BG career. It was so cool too actually throw down with my bro' from NJ!

Thanks Mike, that means a lot to me.  I had a blast both times we played!

Zelc on Ravenwood
They are one of my favorite factions and my opinion of them is reasonably high.  I even like the standard line guys (Swords, Spears) for the points.  Even though the Centaurs are the only 6 skill engaged unit, the nets can help simulate a poor man's 6 skill by getting you that extra hit from time to time.  The problem is that you can't count on that consistently.  The reason I don't have them higher is that they are a finesse faction.  But unlike the other finesse factions (Other Elves, Carthage) they don't become very strong once you've mastered the finesse, just strong.  IMO, of course. 

[elgin_j]

I am not at all convinced someone is not going to find a tactic with one of the less respected factions that will kick some butt and change the pecking order again.

Like Undead stand-and-shoot was once the power build of the game...

Anyway, I disagree with people's assessment of the Hawks.  I find them to be perfectly punchy and more than capable of knocking other factions on the head.  Despite the common opinion that they are an easy faction to use I have the opposite opinion - they are a difficult faction to use well precisely because they are so generalist and require a synergy in army-build and battleplans.  They also shine in Kingdom battles because their versatility of units allows you to build highly specialised armies for whatever terrain you find yourself in.

[Niko White]

Well, keep in mind everyone agrees the power is very close and even the Lizardmen (who so far most of us have been holding the weakest) are perfectly dangerous.  I'll never sit down against any faction and figure "oh I just win" or whatever.  I like Hawks as well, but I don't think they're the very tip top strongest faction.  Again though, we're talking variance that really pales in comparison to most other factors, especially player skill and specific selection choices.  You can make some rubbish Dark Elf lists and some scary Lizardman ones and vice versa.

On Ravenwood, I agree a lot of people are not giving them their due, I think they're awesome,  Also, three Brownies with one backing up the other two is under 240 points and really frustrating to cut through.

[Kevin]

I am not at all convinced someone is not going to find a tactic with one of the less respected factions that will kick some butt and change the pecking order again.

Like Undead stand-and-shoot was once the power build of the game...

Kind of a tangent, and sorry for the lack of link, but I asked about the time that Undead stand-and-shoot was king (It was before my time.).  At that time, units with indirect fire (which at that time was all units with ranged attacks) were allowed to shoot past enemy units.  Which meant that in an artillery duel that Giant Catapult could ignore the Swordsmen "screen" and quickly nail those 1/1 defense Longbowmen into the dirt.

Also, at that time, "extreme range" didn't exist, and long range was consdiered over 50% of a unit's maximum range.   So stand-and-shoot units, especially those with a 21" range, had much more damage output.

I also heard a rumor that once upon a time cavalry didn't get impact hits, but I'm not sure if that was before or after this.

In other words, it was improvements in the game rules, not necessariliy in tactics, which knocked the Undead off their throne.  If those rules were brought back [1] I'd take those Undead shooting armies (or maybe Ravenwood) in a heartbeat!

[1] To any of the Powers That Be reading this, please don't!  

Anyway, I disagree with people's assessment of the Hawks.  I find them to be perfectly punchy and more than capable of knocking other factions on the head.

Well, Zelc gets a math demerit by rating more than 50% of factions above " average."      I personally consider Hawkshold average, with 4 factions above (Dark Elves, Carthage, Umenzi, Rome in that order) above and 4 (Dwarves, Monsters & Mercs, Undead, Lizardmen) below.  An "average" faction by definition can win.  Heck, I took a Hawkshold 1500 point army and went 3-0 at the 1500-point Council of 5 Nations tournament last year.  Report at http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,1687.0.html .

[BubblePig]

Well, Zelc gets a math demerit by rating more than 50% of factions above " average."

Going to have to get uber-geek to the point of being a d&^#bag. In the following list of numbers 3 out of 4 are above "average" (=100):
140,130,120,10.

[Kevin]

Generally in non-quantifiable data (such as rankings), "average" per se is meaningless and therefore is a colloquial way of saying "median." 

However in a sense,  you did just stumble upon the solution to every school principal's and politician's dream of having every single student be "above average":  factor in the neural activity of the classroom plants and the gerbil.