General tactical advice

[Moose]

So, the thing is, I pretty much stink at Battleground    I can put together a decent army, and even position them okay (sometimes) at start-up, but once maneuver begins I have some issues (to put it nicely    Things like getting my T-Rex triple pinched twice in 2 games this past weekend)

I guess what I would be interested in would be seeing some basic tactical advice for the game.  Anyone have anything useful for me?

[gornhorror]

Well, a 506 point unit that can get the hell shot out of it, get triple pinched and is usually forced to go after fast crap units will get killed quick.  I really hate that aspect of that unit.  I don't think it makes sense.  The T-Rex is a unit that should be able to go after the unit that is the biggest threat.  Maybe you should be able to control who it attacks with two command actions....?  Something has to be done, I got both my T-Rexes wasted because they were forced to go after baleric slingers....The two rout checks that I failed didn't help either.

[Kevin]

OK, here's a quick 6:

(1)  Don't get pinched.

(2)  No really.  Don't get pinched.

(3)  You really don't want to get pinched.

(4)  Pinching the other guy, on the other hand, is pretty sweet.  There are two ways to get a pinch.  (a)  2+ guys with sufficient speed/angle vs. one opponent dangling at the end of the line  (b) your unit crushing its immediate opponent and pinching its neighbor.

(5)  Try to minimize the number of command actions spent futzing around so that you can draw as many Command Cards as possible (or faction abilities if they're really awesome).

(6)  Use red cards to boost your strongest attacks in order to win decisively (See 4b).  Use blue cards to keep your units alive where a quick win by your opponent would really suck.

[elgin_j]

Here's my advice:

Simplicity.  Simplicity of army selection, simplicity of deployment and simplicity of play.

Simplicity of Selection: T-Rex-esque units are fun to play but I regard them as tactically naive.  You should be looking at a spread of medium-cost units (200pt) range with some fast-movers and perhaps some archers.  Couple of golden rules - ensure your line has identical movement values and ensure there is no defensive weak-link.  Avoid any unit that has any restrictions on CAs or CCs.

Simplicity of Deployment: Forget skewed deployment.  Throw down a 6-7 line of solid infantry with fast-movers on the flanks and archers in the rear. 

Simplicity of Play: There's no need for cunning plans.  Keep your line abreast and if terrain slows some of your units in the centre then ensure that all your units are on a maximum move modifier to compensate.  Give them Close with a terrain objective directly in front on the far edge of the battlefield and advance in perfect synchronicity.  Tuck your fast-movers behind your flank units and bring them out once the lines are ready to hit to ensure they don't rove ahead.  Force your opponent to come up with clever plans that cost lots of CAs - if he fancies his chances then he will and as his plan becomes more complex so the likelihood of his making mistakes increases.

Perhaps most importantly, stick with a single faction.  Once you've developed a suitably robust ability then consider moving onto another.  If you have already done so and are struggling then it's time to pick a new one.  What is your style of play?  Take a faction that complements this particular style.  I love coming up with clever army builds and novel ways to play but I only do so with a faction that I have extensive experience of and a thorough knowledge of the strengths/weaknesses of each of its units (Hawks).  When I play other factions I don't try anything as sneaky as I would with Hawks.

[BubblePig]

So, the thing is, I pretty much stink at Battleground    I can put together a decent army, and even position them okay (sometimes) at start-up, but once maneuver begins I have some issues (to put it nicely    Things like getting my T-Rex triple pinched twice in 2 games this past weekend)

I guess what I would be interested in would be seeing some basic tactical advice for the game.  Anyone have anything useful for me?

First off let me say that just because you got your T-Rex triple pinched twice does not mean you "stink at Battleground." The previous game to ours, I got 2 Earth Elementals effectively taken out of the game chasing skirmishers, which is almost as bad if not just as bad. Ultimately, your opponent is going to have more control of your Stupid units than you do. That is just 'the nature of the beast' (bad pun intended.) I think that the discount on Impulsive and Stupid were purposely lowballed for good reason, but to me the idea of giving a percentage discount instead of evaluating on a unit by unit basis is a bit suspect anyhow. I am not saying this to disparage the excellent work that went into designing the game, but to emphasize the following:
If you don't think you are getting your points worth out of Stupid units my primary advice is to stop swimming against the tide.

OK, here's a quick 6:

(1)  Don't get pinched.

(2)  No really.  Don't get pinched.

(3)  You really don't want to get pinched.

(4)  Pinching the other guy, on the other hand, is pretty sweet.  There are two ways to get a pinch.  (a)  2+ guys with sufficient speed/angle vs. one opponent dangling at the end of the line  (b) your unit crushing its immediate opponent and pinching its neighbor.

(5)  Try to minimize the number of command actions spent futzing around so that you can draw as many Command Cards as possible (or faction abilities if they're really awesome).

(6)  Use red cards to boost your strongest attacks in order to win decisively (See 4b).  Use blue cards to keep your units alive where a quick win by your opponent would really suck.

Most of Kevin's points here pretty much back up my thesis. Points 1-3: Stupid units are the easiest ones to pinch; Point 4: n/a; Points 5+6 it takes more CC's to boost Stupid units' attacks. Even the 2 cards you get for M&M Stupid units don't make up for that 90% of the time, and IIRC T-Rexes don't even have that going for them. All of which begs the question, why did I take Stupid units all over the place? Answer: Sometimes there is method to my madness and sometimes I just like to do crazy stuff. Oh, and I would also like to add
(7)   Those awesome attack and defense stats that Stupid units generally have don't mean squat when you are the first guy getting pinched.

[Moose]

(7)   Those awesome attack and defense stats that Stupid units generally have don't mean squat when you are the first guy getting pinched.

I think that this is actually the heart of the matter, and a big reason I did so poorly in the last two tourneys I played.  That is probably the best advice I have received so far. (Since I already knew that to be pinched is to die  )

[RushAss]

(7)   Those awesome attack and defense stats that Stupid units generally have don't mean squat when you are the first guy getting pinched.

I think that this is actually the heart of the matter, and a big reason I did so poorly in the last two tourneys I played.  That is probably the best advice I have received so far. (Since I already knew that to be pinched is to die  )

I've been kicking around this concept with the Monsters and Mercs that prevents early pinching of a Hydra.  There are ways to do it with a T-Rex and the Lizard Men, but it's not as effective.  You need Ogres to make it work well.  I'm going to get into that when I start writing up my games from Council.

And I don't think you suck Steve.  We've been teammates in big games before and I never felt that I had to pull any extra weight.

[Hannibal]

(6)  Use red cards to boost your strongest attacks in order to win decisively (See 4b).  Use blue cards to keep your units alive where a quick win by your opponent would really suck.

To expand on what Kevin is saying, I used to be notoriously poor at managing my command cards.  The key to command cards is the causing and prevention of rout checks.  When playing a Red card, ask yourself:  will playing this card cause a rout check?  If no, sit on it.  Same with Blue cards:  will playing that card prevent a rout check?

An example of one I used to do all the time:  Follow Through.  I'd need 3s and roll three 4s.  Sure I could play it, but if the guy has four green boxes, then what's the point?


Another thing with command cards is timing.  Say you cause 3 hits, putting him 1 box away from his Yellow check.  Do you play Cunning for the 4th box?  Well that depends on the turn.  If its currently your turn, don't do it*.  Because you won't be able to charge since its his turn next and during his turn you'll probably cause that Yellow check anyway.

*Context matters, obviously.  If you're going to take a pinch do it.  Or if the unit only has, say, 2 Yellow boxes so you might force a Yellow check and then a Red check.

[Niko White]

All of the above is pretty good advice.  You also need to be thinking strategically in Battleground basically all the time, from army build on up.

Giant men can be great units, but often in taking one that's difficult to control like the T-Rex or the Hydra, you're falling into a trap because you end up twisting your whole strategy around the unit, which often results in very little redundancy and very little flexibility.  The Ogre Kingdoms list is a prime example: you've got some excellent heavy infantry that can herd and (somewhat) control your giant rampaging death beast, but you've literally build your whole army around it, which creates lots of problems.  First, you basically have to deploy and advance in a straightforward and preset way because otherwise your Hydra is left with lethal unsupported flanks, and so forth.

Basically, while I don't agree with some people who say you should never take the super expensive units, they're an example of a specific thing that I like about battleground: most unusual strategies are pretty situational.  In a field battle, line vs. line over empty space, without boatloads of points, your army is going to be based on a backbone of workhorse core units in the 100-250 point range, backed up by a few cavalry, archers, or heavy hitters.  On the other hand, all of the weirder things you can do have a place if you're in an odd situation.  The giant monsters aren't an exception.  They're not something you want to build your whole army around in 2k open terrain, but if you've got a situation that makes them better, like terrain that covers their flanks or terrain (like deep water) that they can emerge from in a jerklike manner, then they can be quite strong.

Basically, T-Rex is a sometimes food.

[gull2112]

I can't tell anyone how to win. I can tell how I lose. I picture a cool image in my mind and totally disregard tactical realities. In the council game vs. Marcus, I had this cool picture of tough marauders surrounded by millions of screaming goblin fanatics, cool pic, but bad strategy. I should have had my marauders out front with the crazed goblins behind and beside. There are other points, but those will appear in the session report reply to Marcus.

Oh, and I can say what I did to win my other game against Marcus, I just passed 6 of seven Morale Checks, while he failed 6 of seven.

[RushAss]

The key to command cards is the causing and prevention of rout checks.  When playing a Red card, ask yourself:  will playing this card cause a rout check?  If no, sit on it.  Same with Blue cards:  will playing that card prevent a rout check?

Hey, it's pick on Corey week!  Actually, everything he said in his post is true but I expand on those thoughts as well.

In addition to playing command cards to get that all-important rout check that turn, I also play command cards when I can inflict damage that may be more difficult to inflict at a later time.  Usually this means the charge turn where your offensive power is inflated.  Even if I may not force a rout check by playing a red card this turn, I may be able to inflict enough damage to make it probable that a non-command card attack next turn may force it. 

Also, red command cards are good to play on the charge turn against units that have high defensive toughness.  Lets say I'm playing Hawkshold and I have a unit of Swordsmen charge into a Treant (1/4 defense).  They succeed in their fear check and I have a Might card in my hand.  Now even with a might card I have precious little chance of forcing a courage check on Mr. Tree that turn unless I have the dice of the gods.  Unmodified, I'm hitting at 4s and 2s on the charge turn.  By playing Might I will get an extra attack die and will be hitting on 4s and 3s this turn instead.  Not bad, especially when you consider that next turn the Swordsmen will be hitting on only 4s and 1s.  If my plan is to inflict damage on the Treant and not just hold, I'm playing that Might card right away.  Now when I say "my plan is to inflict damage on the Treant" I'm not expecting these swordsmen to defeat it straight up, rather it's likely I'm awaiting help and those little Scouts that are about to flank the big guy are going to provide some fine help indeed.

Conversly, playing blue cards to defend your units on a charge turn even if the opponent won't force a courage check this turn may be a good idea if preventing that damage will make it unlikely that they will force a rout check on the next turn.  Not to mention that if you weather the charge turn well, the rate at which your opponent inflicts damage on your opponent decreases thereafter.

[Hannibal]

Hey, it's pick on Corey week!

I'm the youngest of three boys and am married to a sarcastic snark of a wife.  My ego may not be a "Toughness 3 with a Fumble" like Kevin's but it does have both Bravery and Reanimate as a checkbox.

Bring it.   


Anyway, on the stats, something that may be obvious but I'll state it anyway is that if you can get an opponent down to 1s for a to-hit or to-wound that its twice as good as if he needs 2s. 

If you look at at the math of a (X)5/5 unit attacking a Def Y/2 unit:

If Y = 2, then each X will result in 1/4 points of damage.
Y = 3, then X results in 1/6 pts.
Y = 4, then X results 1/12 pts of damage

When Y increases from 2 to 3, that's a respectable jump of 50%.  But when it goes from 3 to 4, that's an increase of 100%.  I say that because that can factor into your thinking when you're deciding whether to play a card or not on minor cases.

For example, the main tactical advantage of the Pila (IMO) is that it can put you into the Yellow/Red before you get your swings.  Usually 3 dice isn't really worth defending with a card.  But if you're in the green and are 1 box from being in the Yellow, it might be worth it.  Because, say he needs 2s to hit but 4s to wound (each X = 2/9 pts).  With 3 dice that 2/3rds of a pt.  Meaning with a good rounding, he could knock you into the Yellow.  Say he's got 1-2 pts left in his green.  If you're charging, (and are (5)5/5) there's a decent chance you'll inflict those 2 pts (5/3rds of a pt).  Meaning with a Command Card you could easily get to 2 pts inflicted.  But lose that attack die and you're now inflicting just over 1 pt of damage.  So by playing that Parry you're not just preventing a pt of damage (because he'll now inflict 2/9s of a pt total), you're also functionally giving yourself (+1)+0/+0.

Also, these sort of numbers factor in when building an army.  Having a Def 3/2 unit is nice, but I almost always think of them as "A unit with a Parry."  Meaning I take them intending to play defensive cards on these guys.  By intending them to get my best Blue cards, they will be around longer and thus probably be the ones to get the breakthrough.  So when I have a unit with high defensive stats, in truth that unit is an offensive unit strategically.  Its why Hannibals Elite, a unit I panned when I first played Carthage, is actually a really good unit in the army.


Its worth noting that with offensive stats you don't see the same escalation.  Again, looking at the math where a (X)Y/5 unit attacking a Def 2/2 unit:

If Y = 5, then each X will result in 1/4 points of damage (or 3/12ths of a pt).
Y = 6, then X results in 1/3 pts (or 4/12ths of a pt).
Y = 7, then X results 5/12 pts of damage.

So for each +1 of Y gets you +1/12th a pt of damage.  Certainly an 8% increase of damage is nothing to scoff at, but its much more linear than defensive bumps

[Zelc]

My best advice for this would be to come into each game with a plan.  Have an idea of what units will win their fights for you, and roughly how long it'll take for them to win their fights.  Then you'll definitely have units who'll be losing their fights.  Have a general idea of what they'll be up against, how long they can hold out, and what you can do to extend their lifespan.  If your fight-losers are going to lose faster than your fight-winners can win, you're going to need a new plan .

So in army building, think about what units your opponent can bring and how you're going to match up against those units.  Pick some units who'll win their fights and some units who'll lose their fights.  In deployment and first turn maneuvering, be sure to react to how your opponent deploys and maneuvers to take advantage of favorable matchups.  During combat, make sure you send Command Cards to ensure your winners will win before your losers lose.  I play cards just as much for insurance as I do to just boost my damage or take less damage in general.  Also, don't be afraid to gamble.  If playing a blue card gives you a significantly higher chance of your tank lasting through your combat turn, it might be worth it just for the shot at holding up the enemy unit for two more turns.

Now that I've told you guys all my tricks, I fully expect you to beat me if I go to Championship this year .

[Kevin]

My best advice for this would be to come into each game with a plan.

Definitely a key piece of advice.  I'd carefully read the rest of the post as well.

[Niko White]

Having a plan and knowing your opponent's strengths is also as or more important if you want to go with a weird army.  A lot of people like weird gimmick lists, which is awesome, and can even be effective, but if you want to run a weird gimmick list, you need to be even more aware of things like terrain and what your opponent can or is reasonably likely to bring against you.  Your all cavalry fast mover force might actually be fantastic against your opponent's likely Ravenwood or Dark Elves build, but is very unlikely to get there against an Orcish line, to pick a random thoughtless example.  Terrain can be an even bigger deal; an army full of giant monsters might get pinched into oblivion on an open field but be completely brutal advancing across a restricted front.