Sneak Peak - A new faction I'm thinking about!

[Zelc]

So gull can't publish this before me (although I bet someone's probably come up with this idea before).

Army Ability
Most/all units in this faction have the following ability:

You may play up to two red cards each time this unit attacks, and up to two blue cards each time this unit is attacked.



What's the flavor?  You'll find out!    It's a faction I've wanted to talked about though...

[Hannibal]

I'm gonna do a big ol' Darth Vader sized NOOOOOOO!!


This was the original army ability for Alexander and its horribly broken.  It violates one of the core principles of the game and, again, is broken.  The ability to play, say Accuracy and Force on the same attack when your opponent can only play 1 Blue card is broken and unfun to play against.

So if you're thinking about this idea, kindly go sit down in a corner until the idea goes away.  Maybe have a cookie.  And a coke.   

[Zelc]

I know it's a really powerful ability, that's why I was going to cost it at something like 50+ points.

Annoying you guys thought of it already though .

[Hannibal]

Its not that its just powerful, but its un-fun to play against.  When its 1 Red vs 1 Blue card, you have the opportunity to negate his card.  Now obviously its not a perfect world like that, so having the exact right card doesn't always happen.  But at least there's a chance, whereas with this ability you have to just sit there and let your opponent combo you.

[gull2112]

So gull can't publish this before me (although I bet someone's probably come up with this idea before).

Even I wouldn't present a rule that broken!

It's all good.

[Zelc]

Its not that its just powerful, but its un-fun to play against.

Is it really that bad?    I'd think the faction's units would have worse base stats and would depend on Command Cards.  Even with some draw abilities, they'll run out of cards eventually if they just play cards everywhere.  Is it really that big of a difference when a 180-point unit with Militia stats gets an extra Strike and Hardened, compared with just playing Cygnets?

[Hannibal]

Well the problem is that you have to average the cost.  You can't just slap a surcharge on the unit equal to playing two CCs on it.  For example, let's say the ability to have two CCs played on a unit is worth 100 pts.  So a Militia unit costs 170 pts.

Except it doesn't because you're not playing 2 CCs on it every turn.  So you figure the cost of it as if you're playing 2 CCs say 1 turn in 4.  That means the cost is 25 pts, so you'd charge 95 pts for that unit.

The problem is that when you play cards on the unit it's a 170 pt unit, meaning at those times its 75 pts undercosted.  However on every other turn its overcosted by 25 pts per turn.  So it'll either always feel too weak or too strong.  And what's worse is that on the turns you play it, it'll feel too strong in an unfun way.  The 'play 2 CCs' was stricken down hard by my playtesters as really frustrating to sit across the table from.

[gull2112]

Untested, I would tend to side with Zelc as even if you could play two cards, you would run out of cards that much faster, so it would tend to balance out, but I always defer to playtest experience and if Hannibal said people didn't like it, well you can argue all day, but that is a fact that just don't change, no matter what fiddly things you do with it.

I can't imagine I'd enjoy playing a faction with expensive stat-nerfed units, because if I ran into a situation where I needed to use a lot of command actions, like say I had to adjust to an unexpected threat (which happens almost every game), suddenly I'm stuck with a lame army. 

[Zelc]

Hannibal, how would you feel about a compromise of sorts:

Once per attack you can discard a red card to give a unit A (+0) +0/+1 or A (+0) +1/+0, and once per defense you can discard a blue card to give a unit D +0/+1 or D +1/+0.

Definitely worse than a Command Card and it's not nearly as great as stacking 2x Accuracies or something, but still keeps the flavor.

[Hannibal]

How about a better idea:  you may spend a CA in any turn, which may be used in later turns for either O: (+0)+1/+0, O:(+0)+0/+1, D:+1/+0, or D:+0/+1.  Perhaps you could have some geometric shape on the card that the player could mark on the unit to signify that a CA had been spent on the unit?

 

[Zelc]

Because they have a different faction ability?

[Hannibal]

First, I hope that my post came across joking as I intended.  I was trying to make light and if it came across as sarcasm, sorry.

The greater point I was alluding to though is don't get distracted by the process and sacrifice the result.  Several years ago I was in a game design seminar is this small con (ironically the same con where Chad got me into BGFW), and one of the guys on the panel said something that has stayed with me:  work backwards.  Determine what effect you want and then design the rules to get to that effect.  Too many people try to come up with neat mechanism that are there primarily because it'd be neat if you could do X with a unit.  Essentially it was having a special rule for the sake of special rules.

His point was that people would get tired of having units that followed special rules simply because playing a different set of rules is how the designer made a faction/army/class different.  If you want them to play different, determine how they'll play different and then try to get there with as minimal deviation from the standard rules as possible.

For example, Hawkshold is a real hold-the-line type army.  Sure they do it by having Bravery, but also by their stats.  They have 5 Green whereas most armies have 4.  That one little box makes a huge difference in their durability.  There's no special rule, no tweaky ability, no real exception to the rules.  It fits in the framework and yet produces the desired result.

Another example, when we designed phalanxes for Alexander vs Persia we accreted this laundry list of special rules and very late in the process we took a hard look and came away saying "there's got to be a simpler way."  So we sat down a determined what we wanted, a big honking unit that could simply grind down an enemy.  Win by not losing.  Best way to do that?  Yup, lots of Green boxes.  The average phalanx has 6 Green boxes, but only 10 total.  This gives phalanxes a feeling of being very tough, but once you put them into the Yellow, they're taking checks in quick succession.  A strong but brittle formation, as they were.  We didn't eliminate all the special rules, but we drastically pruned them down so that they could almost fit on the back of the card (they won't because we want to save room for flavor text).

Okay, a non-hit box example:  When trying to figure out how to represent Alexander & his generals being in the army, leading from the front, I originally had an idea where you purchased the generals and attached them to the unit by marking an appropriate checkbox.  Niko & Chad talked me down from this particular idea by pointing out that a) there'd be some units that had like 2-3 boxes once you factored in generals and the checkbox ability and b) explaining the effects of these generals would take probably a card and half.  That'd be more reminder cards the player would have to lay out (making his side of the table look like a solitaire game) and it'd be money spent on cards that just sit there.

Instead they convinced Zinos and I to have the generals be command cards, which you could then buy from your deck at a premium over normal CCs (since you were choosing them).  Then you play them, and use the checkbox ability to replay them. 

Their idea was genius.  It saved on printing costs, kept the generals in the deck even when not purchased, and most importantly used an existing rule.  A person wouldn't have to learn a new special rule,  just how this one modified an existing rule.  They kept the desired result and expressed it with a simpler, better process.


What it appears to me at first read is you really like the idea of playing two cards on a unit.  So much so that when I put forth my reservations, you're counter-idea was basically to use cards to do something that is normally done with checkbox abilities.  Which makes me return to the original question:  what is the desired effect?

If the desired effect is to give units an uber good, but uber costly stat bump, then we can work towards that.  I'm not sure using CCs as the vehicle for that is the correct way to go.  Using CAs is probably better.

But if the desired effect is playing 2 CCs on a unit because dropping 2 cards is cool, then your desired effect is a process.  And that's probably not a good idea.  Its something that was tried and wasn't terribly successful and its trying to create special-ness via process rather than effect.

I'd return to the initial design idea:  what is the desired effect of this ability?  Then you can build from there.  Hope this helps.

[Zelc]

First, I hope that my post came across joking as I intended.  I was trying to make light and if it came across as sarcasm, sorry.

lol, I read it as a serious suggestion and didn't see either humor nor malice in it.  Probably because I missed the smiley face .

Which makes me return to the original question:  what is the desired effect?

The desired effect is a faction that relies on Command Cards more than other factions, but draws more Command Cards than other factions.

[Hannibal]

The desired effect is a faction that relies on Command Cards more than other factions, but draws more Command Cards than other factions.

Yeah that's a process, not an effect.

It sounds to me that you want a faction with a wimpy statline that can be brought up to mediocre or good.  The vehicle for that isn't command cards.  Its probably command actions.

[Zelc]

It sounds to me that you want a faction with a wimpy statline that can be brought up to mediocre or good.  The vehicle for that isn't command cards.  Its probably command actions.

Honestly, my desired outcome is to create a faction that requires and rewards Command Card management more than other factions.  Wimpy statlines with two command cards per attack/defense was the vehicle for that.

Or, "Wouldn't it be cool if there was a faction that drew a lot more Command Cards than other factions, but really needs to?  Hey, maybe if I give them an army ability which makes them use more Command Cards, and put a good-sized point premium on it."