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Author Topic: A couple questions about Rome cards  (Read 804 times)
gull2112
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« on: April 30, 2011, 03:30:13 pm »

Did I miss some errata or is there reasoning beyond my ken?

The Triarii have a to hit skill of 5. This means they start out as Hastatti with 4 skill quickly graduate to 5 skill as veteran Hastatti, eventually gaining 6 skill as Veteran Princepes, only to forget some skill as they join the Elite Triarii?


The Italian Swordsmen and Spearmen are identical except as pertaining to their arms. In all other factions Spearmen are more expensive, yet in Rome they are three points cheaper (174-171)! WTF???
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Niko White
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2011, 06:22:47 pm »


For the first: they're older and so rusty, like some of us posters Tongue

For the second: Italian Spearmen don't have Pila.
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gull2112
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2011, 06:43:07 pm »


For the first: they're older and so rusty, like some of us posters Tongue

For the second: Italian Spearmen don't have Pila.

Does it say that somewhere? I don't have the cards in front of me, but I thought I looked pretty closely and didn't see any difference. Probably my mistake, sign me up for Triarii. Tongue
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Niko White
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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2011, 11:27:14 pm »


For the first: they're older and so rusty, like some of us posters Tongue

For the second: Italian Spearmen don't have Pila.

Does it say that somewhere? I don't have the cards in front of me, but I thought I looked pretty closely and didn't see any difference. Probably my mistake, sign me up for Triarii. Tongue

What, the pila thing?  It doesn't need to say they don't have it, it just needs to not say they do Tongue
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Hannibal
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 03:23:04 pm »

Quote
The Triarii have a to hit skill of 5. This means they start out as Hastatti with 4 skill quickly graduate to 5 skill as veteran Hastatti, eventually gaining 6 skill as Veteran Princepes, only to forget some skill as they join the Elite Triarii?

I'd meant to reply to this but hadn't found the time (and then got sidetracked with all the post-tournament stuff).

The thing to remember is that the historical context in this particular faction.  In short, there isn't really a 'skill ladder' or 'class progression' that goes on. What I'm saying is that guys don't start as Principes, go to Vet status, the become Triarii.  What should have happened is guys go from being Principes to Triarii.  What did happen is the worst invasion in Roman history, one which eventually destroyed the Republic.

Were it not for Hannibal, as soldiers got older they'd progress through the ranks, eventually becoming Triarii.  However, in the Punic Wars you had guys staying soldiers for 10-15 years.  They got drafted as Principes, fought some battles, then got shipped off to the next battle.  The orderly progression through the ranks was completely wrecked by a foreigner with a timeshare in southern Italy.  But what did happen was that guys got experience at fighting. 

Now this is not to say that there were no progressions, but more that the order of things devolved into "hey you, you're in the army now!"  So at the end of the day, the Vet Principes probably represent Scipio's veterans more than any dedicated corps on the payroll at the start of the war.

Also worth mentioning is that skill is not binary.  The question becomes "skill at what?"  The Triarii still fought in a shallow phalanx, and they were expected to be the last line for when things got tough.  The Principes tactical doctrine was run up, throw the pointy stick, then stab-bash-stab-stab-bash-stab. 

Those are two totally different doctrines.  The Triarii as a unit are trained to float around the field, waiting for the vulnerable point and step forward.  That's an intrinsically more cautious mindset, one that lends itself to a higher Def than anything else.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 03:25:48 pm by Hannibal » Logged

elgin_j
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 12:00:51 pm »

Quote
The Triarii have a to hit skill of 5. This means they start out as Hastatti with 4 skill quickly graduate to 5 skill as veteran Hastatti, eventually gaining 6 skill as Veteran Princepes, only to forget some skill as they join the Elite Triarii?

I'd meant to reply to this but hadn't found the time (and then got sidetracked with all the post-tournament stuff).

The thing to remember is that the historical context in this particular faction.  In short, there isn't really a 'skill ladder' or 'class progression' that goes on. What I'm saying is that guys don't start as Principes, go to Vet status, the become Triarii.  What should have happened is guys go from being Principes to Triarii.  What did happen is the worst invasion in Roman history, one which eventually destroyed the Republic.

Were it not for Hannibal, as soldiers got older they'd progress through the ranks, eventually becoming Triarii.  However, in the Punic Wars you had guys staying soldiers for 10-15 years.  They got drafted as Principes, fought some battles, then got shipped off to the next battle.  The orderly progression through the ranks was completely wrecked by a foreigner with a timeshare in southern Italy.  But what did happen was that guys got experience at fighting. 

Now this is not to say that there were no progressions, but more that the order of things devolved into "hey you, you're in the army now!"  So at the end of the day, the Vet Principes probably represent Scipio's veterans more than any dedicated corps on the payroll at the start of the war.

Also worth mentioning is that skill is not binary.  The question becomes "skill at what?"  The Triarii still fought in a shallow phalanx, and they were expected to be the last line for when things got tough.  The Principes tactical doctrine was run up, throw the pointy stick, then stab-bash-stab-stab-bash-stab. 

Those are two totally different doctrines.  The Triarii as a unit are trained to float around the field, waiting for the vulnerable point and step forward.  That's an intrinsically more cautious mindset, one that lends itself to a higher Def than anything else.

Hannibal.  I'm interested what resources you've used as the basis for your comments about Triarii and veteran Principes.  Where did you source this from?
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Hannibal
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 12:45:35 pm »

From various textbooks (that I either own, owned, or borrowed from the university), various translated primary documents (cause I didn't feel like learning Latin & Greek) and from lectures from my professors.

I don't know if Chad & Co used those distinctions when designing the Principes, Vet Principes, and Triarii but its certainly a defensible one.  In the end its a matter of interpretation, as only a small fraction of Roman duty rosters have survived.  So I doubt you'll find a smoking gun that says 'so and so was due for a promotion but because he's in Spain we'll leave him be'  But I feel that its a fair breakdown.

Remember the Triarii were like 600-900 guys in a legion of like 4800 men.  And Rome drafted just about everybody who could hold a sword.  So I'm certain that Scipio, for example, had guys who were due to be promoted but there simply wasn't the room.  Also the Punic Wars started the phasing out of the Triarii completed by Marius.

(Were I to have a say, I would've advocated the Triarii be Elite, but I think I know why they decided to make them Core.  Making them Elite would mean ~350 pts of non-Core that you have to take.  I probably would have said that maybe they should be 'Elites that fulfill Core' units.  But designing a Roman army for the mid-Republic era gives every system headaches.  The Romans at that point had a very inflexible design more suited to reinforcing the class structure than it did to winning wars.)
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elgin_j
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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2011, 05:27:09 pm »

Interesting.  Your comments about Triarii were the first time I've heard it proposed that mobility within the legion stagnated during the 2nd Punic War due to the veteran status of the legionnaires.  This doesn't sound intuitive to me but I haven't read enough about the period to form an opinion either way.  I am, however, surprised by your ascertation that Hannibal precipitated the process leading to the Marius Reforms - the war finished 100 years before the reforms so I find that one difficult to accept.
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Hannibal
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2011, 06:56:18 pm »

Quote
Your comments about Triarii were the first time I've heard it proposed that mobility within the legion stagnated during the 2nd Punic War due to the veteran status of the legionnaires.

Well there's two things going on there.  First, the Triarii were just beginning to be phased out during the 3rd century.  Hannibal's invasion only accelerated the process, as they were ill suited to fight against Carthage's armies.  If you look at Scipio's campaigns, especially in Spain, he uses Triarii in very non-traditional ways.  In fact, not far off from how most BGFW players have been using them:  as battlesquads.  (I'm vague here because I'm drawing on memories that are 10-12 years old at this point; but you can probably research it yourself if you wanted)

Second, the Second Punic War absolutely would have discombobulated Roman society.  Look at the economic upheaval of the US economy in WWII (where we became a soft command economy), and we didn't even fight that war on our territory!  Look at what WWII did to Germany, Russia, France, and the rest of the continent.  Look what WWI did to them before that.

After Trasimene, Fabian Maximus had Rome build a WWI siege line across the middle of Italy.  That trench line is still there today!  They drafted every able bodied man they possibly and sent them off to war.  It had a huge dislocating effect.  And like all major wars, they started talking about armies the way they had talked about divisions (using modern terms).  Individual promotions and things like become much less important than bottling up Hannibal.


Quote
I am, however, surprised by your ascertation that Hannibal precipitated the process leading to the Marius Reforms - the war finished 100 years before the reforms so I find that one difficult to accept.

Ask any Classics historian who destroyed the Roman Republic and they'll say the same thing:  Hannibal.  See, the traditional Roman system was to draft landed males.  To be eligible to be drafted (and thus be a full fledged citizen), you had to own a certain amount of wealth in land.  You had to provide your own arms and armor for when you were drafted.

This system works well for short wars, for the obvious reason that farms don't plow, plant, and harvest themselves.  The Second Punic War was sixteen years.  You had guys away for 8, 10, 12 years at a time.  They return home to a land overgrown and uncultivated, their tools stolen or rusted/rotted, and perhaps even their house fallen in.  Plus they had little to no money to buy things like seed and livestock (if there were any available, remember Rome had been on a war footing for a generation).

Meanwhile along comes a nearby patrician, who had been an officer during the war and thus had a higher share of pillage in addition to ancestral holdings that hadn't fallen into disrepair, and he offers to buy the land for pennies on the dollar.  But still, pennies on the dollar is more than the soldier could expect to see out of his farm for the next 10-15 years.  So he sells and moves into the city.

Now magnify this across Rome.  Suddenly, the vast demographic base that Rome had been able to draft withers away.  The cities swell, sure, but that population isn't allowed to be drafted. 

At the same time, out of the Second Punic War comes the precedent of "Authority with Office."  See Scipio Africanus petitioned the Senate during the war to give him an army and he'd invade Spain to cut off Hannibal's supply of manpower.  The problem was only Consuls could lead an army ("Authority") but Scipio was too young to be a Consul.  So the Senate gave him the authority to lead the army without being consul.  However, they demanded that he would pay for it, something he willingly did.

In other words, Scipio was allowed to create a private army with the blessing of the Senate but without any of the limitations of elected office (like having an end date for your term, even dictators had to step down after 6 months).  That is a Bad Thing.  Armies are always loyal to the person cutting your check.  And while wrapping your leader in the cloak of nationalism seems bad to some, wrapping it in hero worship of the general is always worse.  Nationalism usually embraces the status quo.  Cult of Personality usually boils down to the guy on top promising the masses to "get them what they deserve from them that took it from you."

You see these two trends become exacerbated in the century after the 2nd Punic War, and Marius's Reforms are the logical next step.  First and foremost, he allowed landless citizens to be drafted.  We may think this not a bad thing today, but the mentality of the time is that people without land (i.e. wealth) are more prone to topple the government and take the land (wealth) by force from those who have it.  A solid point when you think about it.

One of the other things the Marian Reforms was an attempt to halt the loyalty to the general of armies.  Every soldier who served was given a land grant on retirement.  The idea is that people would be loyal to Rome if Rome gave them wealth from the people they conquered.

One flaw: you had to go conquer the land.  And conquering armies tend to worship their esteemed leader.  The culture of "Authority without Office" had simply taken root too deep.  And from that you see the chaos of Sulla and Marius, the 1st Triumvirate, and the 2nd Triumvirate.

Hannibal killed Rome.  He buried a blade in her side that took her a hundred years to bleed out, but he killed her.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 11:46:54 pm by Hannibal » Logged

Kevin
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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2011, 11:25:22 pm »

Great post, Corey!

See, I knew you had useful things to do with your time.   Grin
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Hannibal
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« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2011, 11:48:05 pm »

Quote
See, I knew you had useful things to do with your time.

Hey, I added a new wrinkle to the tactics of the game...  Valuable use of my time.  Cool
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elgin_j
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2011, 03:34:35 am »

Thanks for that.  The causality of the war in introducing social changes is interesting - I'll have to look into it more.  Can you recommend any good books (that aren't dull text books)?
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gull2112
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2011, 04:43:54 pm »

I happen to prefer "dull" textbooks, so whatever you got is good by me. I have read most of the popular classical accounts (Tacitus, Ceasar, etc), but always interested in good new research.
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Hannibal
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2011, 05:34:25 pm »

Sadly I purged most of my textbooks about seven years ago.  I figured at the time that I wouldn't need them as it wasn't something that would come up.  Really, how many jobs have you grabbing that Roman history textbook.

And btw, I know its passe to say this in American culture (and right now in particular) but I would warn against thinking you can just read the primary sources and come away with anything close to an informed understanding. It really is better to read a book written by a guy who researches this field full time.  The primary sources will often lead you astray as they are all fantastically biased. 

Okay maybe not all, but most are written with a slant that we'd call propaganda today.  Certainly, the academic writing about said primary sources will also have an opinion, but I promise you that all but the worst writer is better than any of the classical authors.  Exceptions to that include Victor Davis Hanson, who at this point is a modern day Arrian.

In the end, trust the academic.  He's not a 'liberal elitist' trying to shove a left-wing agenda down your throat.  Not saying you were thinking any of that, btw, just putting this out as a public service announcement.
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gull2112
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2011, 06:51:26 pm »

I hear ya on the primary sources thing, about the most accurate statement you can make about them is that it is evidence of how they wanted something to be remembered (or how their patatrons wanted things to be remembered), and yes, having a few professional historians as friends, I am well aware of what effort is involved in translating ancient texts into something we can all apppreciate (too bad people who base their world on English versions of latin texts translated from aramaic and hebrew don't seem to appreciate that  Wink).
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