Please double check the formula - Dwarves vs. Orcs

[Kevin]

Niko recently pointed out that Hawkshold Greatswordmen (271) are identical to Orc Axemen (300).  Except that they move 2.5" rather than 3.5".  This almost-10% discount strikes me as perfectly reasonable, by the way.

Now let's compare Orc Swordsmen (point cost 237)

(5) 5/5 2/3 3.5" morale 12 hit pionts 4g-4y-2r

with Dwarf Axemen (point cost 240)

(5) 5/5 2/3 2.5" morale 12 hit points 4g-4y-4r

These units differ in 2 ways. 

1)  Like the Hawkshold Greatswordsmen, the Dwarf Axement move at 2.5" albeit they sometimes go faster.  This presumably gets them a discount less than 10%.  5%?

2)  The Dwarves have 2 more red boxes.

That implies that 2 red boxes are adding over 6ish% to the unit's cost.  Others in the Peanut Gallery may consider that fine, but I'm extremely skeptical--particularly in light of my playtesting experience in Alexander/Persia where we fiddled with red boxes and Corey informed us how that would change unit costs.

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This is NOT a request to change "The Formula."  However, I would consider it a favor if someone with access to The Formula could humor me and double-check the point cost to confirm that both the Dwarf Axemen and Orc Swordsmen are priced accurately.  Thanks!

[RushAss]

I think there's 2 things you also need to consider.

1)Both faction specific abilities may not be costed equally.  I for one don't believe that every faction ability is worth the same.
2)While Dwarves move 2.5 like Hawk Heavy units, they final rush and route at 3.5.  Which is actually significant.  Furthermore, they also can be sprinted for a command action and they face no penalty for traveling uphill.

And I don't consider Orc Axemen to be identical to Hawk Greatswords.  Similar, but not identical.

[Kevin]

1)Both faction specific abilities may not be costed equally.  I for one don't believe that every faction ability is worth the same.

I'm 90% certain that faction abilities' relative merits are not accounted for in The Formula (though a unit gets a discount if it doesn't get one at all.)

2)While Dwarves move 2.5 like Hawk Heavy units, they final rush and route at 3.5.  Which is actually significant.  Furthermore, they also can be sprinted for a command action and they face no penalty for traveling uphill.

OK that's a good point.  So you're right, they shouldn't be getting as much of a discount for their slow movement.  but still...I'd love to be humored here.

[RushAss]

I'm also curious.  I think that red boxes are worth less than green or yellow boxes, but I have no way to be sure.

You know, I don't know if this thread is the correct place for this.  But it's been on my mind for quite some time now and this thread is sort of applicable for this sort of question.

Do the command decks actually factor into overall faction unit points costs?  There are some command decks that are clearly superior to others. 

Chad, Niko, or whoever - please answer Kevin's question first so I don't pull off an official hijack!

[Niko White]

The Dwarves sheet isn't in my copy of the formula, presumably because it's too old, so I can't exactly replicate the work there - dwarfy movement doesn't appear to be on the list of standard modifiers.  If I make Orc Swordsmen with 4 red, they cost 247, though.

In general I think Dwarves are one of the least successful Battleground factions, though I guess they have their supporters.  They don't generally rate well with highly competitive players, though.  The problem from a design perspective is that they're all bruiser heavy infantry with a faction ability to match, and in line clashes they're very similar to 3.5" movers.  The problem is that they're not any good at complex maneuvers or the like and that tends to be really frustrating to players who like that.  I have no idea how I'd cost them as-is - if you make them attractive to people who like maneuver despite their sluggish non-combat movement, they become just beastly in fair line fights, which is going to be the vast majority of their operational life, and in which they are identical to 3.5" movers.

Also, Rush, in theory command deck + faction abilities combine to make a balanced package, so none of that goes into the formula, though we do think about it when we're making individual units and looking at command decks + faction abilities as a whole etc.  One reason Chad doesn't publish the formula, I think, is that it really is designed and used to be a starting point, not an end point.  We don't usually adjust it a lot for units without any particularly special abilities, but it also doesn't take into account the really hard stuff - strange units, plus all the faction things.

[Hannibal]

These units differ in 2 ways.

1)  Like the Hawkshold Greatswordsmen, the Dwarf Axement move at 2.5" albeit they sometimes go faster.  This presumably gets them a discount less than 10%.  5%?

2)  The Dwarves have 2 more red boxes.

This may not address your specific points, but just something to consider is that formula is not additive.  There's very few flat costs to things, so stats are valuable in relation to other stats.  So for example, movement is seen as a 'how fast can you get in there to kick @$$' cost.  So if a unit goes from 3.5" to 2.5" then the decrease in cost is proportional to its offensive stats.  The long and short is that a (6) 6/6 unit downgraded to 2.5" is going to see a steeper decline than a (5) 5/5 unit.

As Niko said, the Orks would be 247 with extra Red boxes.  So the Dwarves are getting a 7 pt discount for moving 2.5" and charging 3.5", but also there's the hills bonus that might be factored in as well.

I'm also curious.  I think that red boxes are worth less than green or yellow boxes, but I have no way to be sure.

Oh that's absolutely the case.  Green boxes are more valuable than Yellow boxes which are more valuable than Red boxes.  Again the actual cost (I think) is linked to the unit's stats.  So a Green box on a Peasant Mob is less valuable than one on a Celestial Guard.  Its been awhile since I've worked on the formula, and even then I was by no means an expert at plumbing its depths, but by and large it was a fairly good yard stick.

[gull2112]

Well I definitely hope green boxes are worth more. Damage before a morale check is valuable, and of course, the lost attack dice are very measurable.

[BubblePig]

The quantity of different units out there makes it pretty easy at this point to ballpark without access to the formula, plus the point cost is going to get tweaked if the unit underperforms in playtest. Perhaps a better question would have been - Did such a tweaking take place on Dwarf Axemen, or is that part of the overall dwarven move discount? I don't own the dwarf faction, but comparison of other dwarven units to orcs or hawks would probably clarify that point since the 'secret' dwarven move discount is lost in the Mines of Moria.

[Kevin]

The axemen are not a fluke:  dwarf spearmen are similarly a few more points than orc spearmen. 

I more had just noticed what a tiny discount dwarves get for slowness relative to the Hawkshold units.

[RushAss]

The axemen are not a fluke:  dwarf spearmen are similarly a few more points than orc spearmen. 

Yeah, but Dwarf Spearmen are also better than Orc Spearmen 

[Chad_YMG]

Dwarves get rated in-between a 2.5" and 3.5" move.  The auto-sprint for final rush, can sprint when they need to* and have no penalty for hills.

And yes, red hits are worth less than green hits.  The formula treats them differently in two ways -- one by considering the offensive power of a unit that fights to the death (a red hit tracks at -2 attacks) and, more significantly, by factoring in the chance that you rout due to damage.




* We don't score different army abilities differently yet, but in deciding how to score Dwarven movement we didn't ignore the fact that they have an extra movement ability.

[wulfgar61]

In general I think Dwarves are one of the least successful Battleground factions, though I guess they have their supporters.

In our group they are highly regarded and generally one of teh first factions to go.

[Chad_YMG]

I think Dwarves are fine for normal play.  They can be very risky in tournaments where any maneuverability problem can be magnified by unfavorable terrain, although it helps that hills are favorable.

I think the preference strong players have for other factions has less to do with Dwarves being bad and more to do with the reason good players tend to prefer complex decks in Magic.