Hawk 2.5" movement fix

[gull2112]

I was thinking about how we might adjust the Hawks 2.5" MC issue (if you start with the premise that it needs fixing). My first rule, as always, is you should ideally not have to change any info on the card.
You could add this rule for any Hawkshold infantry unit with a 2.5" MC:
If not in any terrain that reduces MC then MC becomes 3.5"

This would allow them to keep up with the other guys in clear terrain, but still remain glacial in any kind of rough terrain. Basically acknowledging that they can walk as fast as anyone in clear terrain, but they have a much tougher time trying to negotiate anything that creates a hindrance. This has the advantage over raising the MC overall to 3.5" as that doesn't penalize them enough in rough terrain making them better than dwarves at maneuvering in heavy armor (WTF!).

[Zelc]

I don't know... I hate the 2.5 move speed, but a 10% discount on Orc Axemen for no penalty in clear terrain is really really good.  I think maybe they can use a move speed buff when Final Rushing and Routing, but otherwise you start making it too good.

[gull2112]

I was talking about Hawkshold and noone else, how did the Orcs get brought into this?

[Zelc]

Compare the Great Swordsmen with Orc Axemen.  Great Swordsmen have 2.5" speed and 1 extra red box, and cost 29 points less.  If you straight up buff their speed, then they're really good compared to similar units.

[gornhorror]

Yeah, but you also have to take into account that the Orc unit can have another hit die and move one movement class better with the Lash.  How much is that worth?  A lot more than 30 points......I would think.  2.5" movement is just sucky for a line unit.

[Niko White]

Yeah, but you also have to take into account that the Orc unit can have another hit die and move one movement class better with the Lash.  How much is that worth?  A lot more than 30 points......I would think.  2.5" movement is just sucky for a line unit.

I'd say it's worth about as much as Bravery, which is kind of the intent.

Hawk plate dudes are fine; they balance stronger power on the line with often having to cap your line and with some awkwardness in spread-out games.  Greatswordsmen rule regardless though, (5) 6/6 1/3 with 5 green is just a brutal stat line for something that cheap.

[Niko White]

Also I know this was probably at least in part prompted by a comment that I think 2.5" move for humans in plate is a standard I wish the Hawks hadn't set.  That's not because those troops are bad; it is because we might well someday want to do a faction with humans in plate as the standard line troops, and a standard line movement of 2.5" is really annoying.  I don't think it is a significant balance concern for Hawkshold, who can bring a very respectable line of 3.5" movers.  The 2.5" guys create sort of an interesting tension in that case, IMO.

[lazyj]

The "fix" for the plate wearing Hawks is to not expect them to move as fast as your regular line units.

I see no need to mess with something that isn't broken. The vast majority of complaints I hear about slow moving Hawks are from people who prefer Elves (generally) or other fast moving armies. Apparently folks like to come up with complicated plans involving maneuvering all your units all over the map.

Just don't do it with these guys. Put them on a shortest line distance to your target and leave them alone. I honestly haven't ever had a major problem with the heavies. When I need them, I take them and when I don't I take something else.

You know what works great in combination with Greatswords or Heavy Infantry? Terrain. Send your normal units through the terrain and your plate guys in the open. Surprise, they all arrive together!

I think I'm just a bit exasperated with a lot of "these units don't do things I wish they could do, therefore they are broken" comments. (Not this one particularly, but a sum total of many of them together.) Hawks play differently than other factions, partially because there are 2 (out of how many others ?!?) units that move slower than the rest.

I agree with Niko that maybe it's an annoying precedent, but I don't think it's a problem in this faction. And Niko - you can always give a future plate wearing unit "Sprint".

[Niko White]

Or just make them move 3.5" anyway, which is likely to be what I argue for.  It's a bit odd, but seems like a small enough nod to gameplay over flavor that it works fine.

And yes, while I'm glad we're fixing a few of the things that actually do need adjustment now that we have a more serious player base, I do think there's a bit of a tendency these days to suggest tweaks to everything, even units that really don't need it, heh.  Even if we're willing to mess with stuff, I think keeping the bar high for changes is clearly the right plan.

[elgin_j]

Also I know this was probably at least in part prompted by a comment that I think 2.5" move for humans in plate is a standard I wish the Hawks hadn't set.  That's not because those troops are bad; it is because we might well someday want to do a faction with humans in plate as the standard line troops, and a standard line movement of 2.5" is really annoying.  I don't think it is a significant balance concern for Hawkshold, who can bring a very respectable line of 3.5" movers.  The 2.5" guys create sort of an interesting tension in that case, IMO.

The only time I find the movement becomes a major issue is when they have crushed an enemy and need to final rush for a pinch.  I find it infuriating that they can become stranded although I do greatly enjoy the tactical issue of trying to balance this weakness.  Thematically the only major issue I have is that Dwarves can Sprint and thereby move faster than these guys; particularly so uphill, where they move at 2MC more.  That is an issue in my mind.

[Hannibal]

Its worth mentioning that Greatswords and Heavy Infantry receive a pretty large discount for their movement being 2.5" instead of 3.5" so its not like they're horribly unbalanced that way.  I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd wager its close to a 20% discount if the unit was at 3.5" so any 'fix' would actually create a very unbalanced unit.

Now holistically the unit can seem weak because it forces the whole line to move at 2.5" but that's only if you play on an empty plain.  Perhaps I am betraying my bias against no-terrain-games but I have found that if there's a piece of terrain where your 3.5" guys will be moving at 2.5" anyway, then you have a quick and easy way to keep your line intact.  The regular guys go in the terrain, and the HI/GS go outside it.

[Niko White]

Its worth mentioning that Greatswords and Heavy Infantry receive a pretty large discount for their movement being 2.5" instead of 3.5" so its not like they're horribly unbalanced that way.  I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd wager its close to a 20% discount if the unit was at 3.5" so any 'fix' would actually create a very unbalanced unit.

Now holistically the unit can seem weak because it forces the whole line to move at 2.5" but that's only if you play on an empty plain.  Perhaps I am betraying my bias against no-terrain-games but I have found that if there's a piece of terrain where your 3.5" guys will be moving at 2.5" anyway, then you have a quick and easy way to keep your line intact.  The regular guys go in the terrain, and the HI/GS go outside it.

It's quite easy to tell, because the Orc Axemen are virtually identical to Greatswords except for the movement, and are 29 points more - not 20%, but a big difference nonetheless.

And yeah, if there's a situation where you're going to have to cap your line anyway, they pretty much only lose the final rush flexibility.  This is a real down side, but not one that's unreasonable to pick up 30 points on.

[RushAss]

Perhaps I am betraying my bias against no-terrain-games but I have found that if there's a piece of terrain where your 3.5" guys will be moving at 2.5" anyway, then you have a quick and easy way to keep your line intact.  The regular guys go in the terrain, and the HI/GS go outside it.

While this makes sense on 1 level, it completely ignores what the enemy is doing.  What if there is a match up that you badly want for your Great Swordsmen or Heavy Infantry, but you'll have to go through terrain to get that match up?

[lazyj]

Meh. If it's that important to have my plate guys fight the dude through the terrain, then they can come to me or I'll shoot the pants off them with my Longbows. 

Obviously they have limitations. But I just don't think it matters enough to try and change anything about them. Hawks = flexibility, which does not mean uniform MCs.

[Hannibal]

Perhaps I am betraying my bias against no-terrain-games but I have found that if there's a piece of terrain where your 3.5" guys will be moving at 2.5" anyway, then you have a quick and easy way to keep your line intact.  The regular guys go in the terrain, and the HI/GS go outside it.

While this makes sense on 1 level, it completely ignores what the enemy is doing.  What if there is a match up that you badly want for your Great Swordsmen or Heavy Infantry, but you'll have to go through terrain to get that match up?

Let's flip that one:  why should your opponent have to be so accommodating?  If you have pinned your hopes of victory on a 2.5" unit which your opponent nullifies by placing the desirable opponents in terrain, then kudos to him.  He's left you with a seemingly difficult choice:  win in the terrain where roling up his line will be harder or win in the open, where it may not matter. 

In the end the question becomes:  is that match up going to win you the game.  If so, it's a no brainer.  You just have to adjust and put your energies on keeping the guys in the open alive long enough to roll him once you've won on the flank.  If not, then don't do it.

The slow move of Greatswords and Heavy Infantry is something you have to work around.  They get a discount for it (Niko says about 30 pts but they also have an extra damage box, so the discount is probably around 35-40 pts, which is in the 13-15% range).  To me its like 'fixing' that cavalry have too few boxes.  Its how they're built.  Its something you have to take into account when you're including them into your army.  You can't just plop down a bunch of cavalry and wonder why they have no staying power.  Similarly, you can't just plop down 2.5" movers and not expect them to impact an army full of 3.5" movers.