Orc Crossbows and the javelin rule?

[gornhorror]

Maybe their offensive skill could be improved just for ranged attacks.  Since they only get 3 attack dice maybe they are taking more time to shoot and therefore they would be more accurate.  What about a  +0  +1/+0 when they shoot.  You could also add in the no move and shoot penalty.

[Niko White]

Maybe their offensive skill could be improved just for ranged attacks.  Since they only get 3 attack dice maybe they are taking more time to shoot and therefore they would be more accurate.  What about a  +0  +1/+0 when they shoot.  You could also add in the no move and shoot penalty.

Haha, wow they'd be nuts with both.

Pretty sure they're not bad enough to ever be worth errata, in any case.  It's easy to forget, since we've had to issue some errata lately including the skeleton extra boxes, but prolific re-writes of existing cards is a real turn-off for new players.  Skeletons were both awful and really important to their faction, which to me justifies the change.  Orc crossbows aren't as bad as all that, and are way less important to their faction, so their continued existence as something that someone only takes from time to time doesn't bother me.

That said, in the theoretical case where I wanted to make a similar unit more important to an army sort of like the Orcs, I'd remove move and shoot rather than upping accuracy, because +1 accuracy improves them for all sorts of stuff, including stand and shoot, whereas removing the move and shoot penalty has the same effect in their intended use (firing to support an advance) while not improving the ones we don't want/intend.

[gornhorror]

Well, I don't think it's too much.  Might make some people actually play the unit.  I hardly ever see that unit in anybody's orc army.  I think it's because the unit is not worth the points.   With only 3 attack dice, I don't think my suggestions would make the unit too powerful in any case. 

[gull2112]

Of course, if you lash the Orc Crossbowmen you increase their attack dice by a whopping 33%!

[Kevin]

I'm not surprised that crossbowmen don't show up in orc armies much:  anything that gets a move-and-shoot penalty should be left in the box in a close-and-hose army, and close and hose is normally what orcs do.  That said, one day I'll have to shock you all with my 31-die orc stand and shoot army.     (You all can figure that one out.)

Removing move-and-shoot from crossbows seems a bit...strange, given that at least in theory one could move while getting a regular arrow out, but loading a crossbow while moving...not happening!

[Chad_YMG]

I think Niko's right that the Orc Crossbowmen don't represent a problem that needs errata.  They're a marginal unit because they don't really fit their army terribly well but occasionally they serve a good use and they're interesting.  If I was doing them over again I might try to improve them a bit but basically the Orcs aren't about stand-and-shoot so it's no surprise that a unit that fits into that sort of army won't be so good with them.

[gull2112]

I think Niko's right that the Orc Crossbowmen don't represent a problem that needs errata.  They're a marginal unit because they don't really fit their army terribly well but occasionally they serve a good use and they're interesting.  If I was doing them over again I might try to improve them a bit but basically the Orcs aren't about stand-and-shoot so it's no surprise that a unit that fits into that sort of army won't be so good with them.

And so now we come full circle to my original assertion that orc crossbows be allowed to use the Javelin rule. Before final rushing they'd fire their crossbows, and without reloading them, charge into battle. Imagine the crossbows being carried bandoleer style so they are just swung onto their back as they charge in. They only get three dice, so its not like they'd be as broken as the centaurs , but it would be a nice little flavor add.

[gornhorror]

I hate to say it, being I don't play the orc much.  I think the javelin rule for the orc's crossbowmen would be a good fix for the unit.  Heck, I think that the javelin rule would be good for any crossbowmen unit.  I'm with you on this one Gull2112. 

[Niko White]

Another complication is that the javelin rule incorporates the lack of a move and shoot penalty so you'd have to specifically write it out 

But in any case, I can't imagine a flavor add and slight buff to a unit that's underwhelming but fine is worth the cost of yet another unit that doesn't function as printed, even aside from Chad's objections.

[Hannibal]

It seems to me that Gull's point (supported by Gornhorror) is:  Orcs theme is to play close-and-hose, so every unit in the box should have a role in playing that style.  If you agree with the first, then the second seems to follow naturally.  However, I'll disagree with that first assumption.

I don't think every part of every Orc army has to be about blitzing across the table at the enemy.  A lot of times, its worth it to have a refused flank or an oblique approach where one side hits the enemy first.  In both those roles the Orc crossbowmen do well.  Stick them on Ranged and they can soften the enemy up while the enemy closes and then you change them to Close at the last second.  As I've already said, they're murder on hills and in certain missions they perform exceptionally well.

Crossbowmen seem to underperform because the default set-up for BGFW is Total Warfare on an empty table, which is just a travesty in my opinion.  When you always play one type of mission/terrain, of course certain units are going to seem sub-par.

[Niko White]

I'm pretty sure defaulting to open terrain is fine, but otherwise Hannibal has good points.  We often have 1-2 units in a Battleground faction that play against type intentionally, as well; that helps avoid the "rock paper scissors" issue by allowing factions to have tools to play an unusual game.  High Elf Scorpions are a good example of this; they're usually awful for the HE playstyle but sometimes are just what the doctor ordered.  I similarly got some great use of High Elf Rangers, who I normally dislike, against Ron at TotalCon.  "I rarely take this unit" doesn't have to translate into "this unit is bad" in a game where you don't have to pay for, paint, and model individual units, and is in fact part of what makes the game so cool - you can do decently well if you just write Orc Crossbowmen and other "bad" units off entirely, but you'll definitely miss some opportunities to make them shine.

[gull2112]

I must admit, I do like the X-bows as presented for refusing a flank without the need for extra command actions, just give them an 'R' SO and they will naturally refuse the flank, yet be much deadlier than anyother missile style unit in close combat (unless you want to use centaurs to refuse a flank ).

Still, I like the flavor of shoot and charge as I presented it here. More flavor than effect.

[wulfgar61]

In our Kingdoms campaign the Orcs drew a large lake on a Split Command battle against Lizzards.  Orc Crossbowmen represented the entire line with 2 Chuckers and Goblin Bowmen hiding behind.  The entire army could shoot and the Crossbowmen had enough moxy to hold off what lizards made contact.  I know Orcs aren't very stand and shoot normally but in that case it worked in amazing fashion.

[RushAss]

Any faction that contains Crossbowmen should use as many as possible on the front line if they are doing a stand and shoot.

[gull2112]

In our Kingdoms campaign the Orcs drew a large lake on a Split Command battle against Lizzards.  Orc Crossbowmen represented the entire line with 2 Chuckers and Goblin Bowmen hiding behind.  The entire army could shoot and the Crossbowmen had enough moxy to hold off what lizards made contact.  I know Orcs aren't very stand and shoot normally but in that case it worked in amazing fashion.

Hey man, we gotta keep quiet about these things or somebody is going to see just how broken the Orc faction really is and then the nerf balls are gonna come fast and heavy light!