Orc Crossbows reformulated.

[gull2112]

What I really don't like about Orc Xbows is that I never take them. It feels wrong to have a unit in my faction that I just never use (I actually do take skeleton bowmen from time to time). There is the tired old phrase that they are best used in certain situations. Huh? What situation is that? They are basically overpriced swordsmen.

So what would make them worth the cost?

I say let them use the Javelin rule. The first sentence in the Javelin rule 7.4 (page 76)
  Some units carry Javelins or other ranged weapons that are launched as the unit charges. (emphasis mine)

If that were the case then I would probably take them to try them out. I'm going to try this as a home rule next time James and I throw down and I've got Orcs in front of me. They still aren't going to be that deadly with only 3 dice, but it would be a nice ability, and there already are rules in place.

[ajax98]

Crossbows see a fair bit of use around here. There have been several times that they were critical to my opponents victories. A few lucky shots and there goes the plan.

[gull2112]

Fine, but I still think it would be interesting to give them the javelin rule. Maybe around your neck of the woods it would cast another 25 points.

[RushAss]

If you give Orc Crossbowmen the Javelin rule, you'd need to do the same for the Dwarves because they are the exact same thing range-wise.  I believe that every faction has a "curiosity" unit or 2 that are seldom used and in the Orc's case, it is the Crossbowmen.  I think the reason that Orc Crossbowmen are awkward in that faction is that Crossbowmen work better in a defensive capacity and the Orcs are primarily an offensively minded faction.  IMO the best use of any Crossbowmen is on the front line of a stand a shoot army where they can pepper the enemy as they come in and still be effective once engaged.  The Dwarven Crossbowmen do this better than the Orcs and they do it for less points.  Getting back to the javelin rule thing, I think the Orcs as a faction are fine and if they have a unit that's tough to fit into most army builds then that's fine.  Every faction has got one.  Even so, the Crossbowmen are not a total waste because as Ajax said, they will probably score a point to 2 of damage on the way in and they don't exactly suck once they are engaged either.   

[Hannibal]

Back when having the high ground was a defensive bonus, my Orc opponent would take crossbowmen when there was a large hill on the table.  Lash a unit or two to the top of the hill and then they're Def 2/3 with a 17.5" range.  They could pepper the enemy who slogged uphill at 2.5" a turn and then when it came to clobbering time they would fight fairly well.

I didn't play Orcs then and I haven't tried it now, but it'd be interesting to try now that the high ground grants the offensive bonus.  It's very very Orcy that they'd still be pretty mediocre on defense but they'd have Skill 6 shots coming at you.

[ajax98]

Fine, but I still think it would be interesting to give them the javelin rule. Maybe around your neck of the woods it would cast another 25 points.

Dusting off the old memory files, some time ago, IIRC back before the infamous server crash & loss of archives, when the 'new' Range Strike rules changed (to some - 'nerfed') the Shooting attacks, I proposed that all/some Range Strike units, particularly x/bow types be allowed a Final Protective Fire; which are known as the 'Javelin Rules'.

1. I based this on the concept of 'simultaneousness'. When the enemy gets much closer the need for 'cohesiveness' of fire control is just not useful. Quick response as the target mass fills your 'sights' is all you really need. Then stowing or dropping/ tossing your implement as you grab your defensive weaponry, gives the portent for allowing the javelin rule.

2. In regard to haste and such, I proposed the unit be penalized (-1) 0, 0.

3. This would only be allowed 'defensively', when the unit SO is on R or H; if the unit has C, it would not apply.

4. IMO this would also 'bring back' some of the utility for Ranged units that was complained about after the rules changed. (That change, IMO, a very necessary adjustment.)

5. Cons - more rules.

[gull2112]

I agree in concept with everything you say, but in the interest of playability I would just use the javelin rule. Its not quite as accurate (whatever that means) as your penalties and such, but it more than makes up for it in simplicity. I don't know that I'd go so far as to allow it across the board, simply because it gives a bump to some missile units that don't really need one. In my mind, even the javelin rule is a bit too complicated as it just adds more baggage; something else to remember. If James didn't remind me I'd never think to use the roman pilas. If you play the game a lot it isn't that big a deal, but for the occasional player (which is me, though not by choice) it is easily overlooked.

[ajax98]

Agreed. & Remembering the nuances of weapon types involves details.

As for keeping it (too) simple, well, I stand on my positions concerning (my perceptions of) 'historicalness'/ "rational assumptions of reality".
 

[RushAss]

E gads fellas, we're only talking about 1 freaking unit here!

*Fires crossbow bolt at Ajax and Gull*

TWANG!

[gull2112]

As for keeping it (too) simple, well, I stand on my positions concerning (my perceptions of) 'historicalness'/ "rational assumptions of reality".

Put the rules in, why the hell not? They won't get used anyway.

[ajax98]

E gads fellas, we're only talking about 1 freaking unit here!

Ahem, my list was for all missile firing units; though not 'spell casters'.

-ya missed my vitals

[RushAss]

I stand corrected.  I was always a lousy shot anyways.

[Hamilcar]

I would have to argue that Crossbows don't fall in the same weapon type as Javelin/Pila and don't deserve the benefit of the "Javelin style" contact attack.
Historically, Crossbows were cumbersome and long to reload.  Firing ratio was 3-4 arrows per bolt fired.  Although, the bolts had a shorter flight distance, they had much higher power in that distance.  This leads me to feel that treating them like all other non-Javelin units is more in line with historical accuracy.

The purpose/function of Javelin/Pila was to throw WHILE closing with an enemy... Crossbows, in some cases, actually had sticks placed on the ground on which they steadied the weapon before firing, due to weight.  I don't see a unit FRing and maintaining ANY accuracy at all with such a weapon.

[Hannibal]

Historically, Crossbows were cumbersome and long to reload.

Well, while I agree with in conclusion, this is a fantasy game.  There are Orcs and Elves and magically reanimated dead.  The laws of physics literally work different in this setting.  So I don't think that, if someone wanted javelin-crossbows, it would be a huge stretch to say that Orcs are strong enough that they can cock their crossbows one handed on the march.  Or you could say that these are light crossbows, as the historically accurate ones would be a move or shoot weapon.  Or both.

[gull2112]

First off, the real intent of the Roman Pila, which is what a lot of this is based off of, was not to cause casualties directly, but to stick a large unwieldy object into the enemy shield, thus forcing him to lower it.

That being said, I agree with hannibal. It is a fantasy world and folks get by using fantastically shaped and oversized swords and all the women wear alluring armor that is more useful in revealing than protecting. Finally, Orcs are tough bastards and the way I picture them using the tactic is to have a couple of lines that fire (one kneeling) as the other lines rush forward just after the release of the bolts. If you really wanted to limit it you could say that Javelin rule units are elites, but that takes all the sport out.