Triarii and "Replacement" Suggestions

[Kevin]

As the discussion after my Council of 5 Nations Report (See "Session Reports" thread.) indicates, a number of people, myself included, think there are problems with Triarii, and with the Replacement Ability.  Simply put, Triarii are currently able to use their abilities to rocket ahead of the Roman infantry line, even though they are the same speed.

Here's my list of how I'd like to see these fixed.

1)  (This was Niko's idea originally).  Have the Triarii's 5-inch backup radius only apply to units with reinforcement boxes.  (= Roman/Italian infantry.) This will prevent the Romans from sending a Cavalry unit (or, in certain cases, a skirmisher) zipping ahead of the main line, then the moment it is cut down Triarii take its place.  (This will also prevent the current silliness where Triarii can back up 3 T-Rexes.)

2)  State that Replacement may only be done after all movement has occurred.  --  this prevents a "slingshot," in which which a unit moves, then Replacement is invoked to move a Triarii to the unit's new position, then the Triarii moves.

3)  State that Replacement may not be used when a unit has charged that turn.  -- This prevents the Romans from being able to use a unit (even one with a single box left) to charge the enemy, then invoke Replacement and suddenly the enemy unit is considered not charging (even if it was cavalry).

This is in addition to the ruling the the Triarii's back up bonus is on engaged attacks only.



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You could eliminate the issues in 2 and 3 with one rule by stating that Replacement happens before all movement, but I prefer the above two rules.  In my opinion, it should be totally fine for a unit which starts the turn an inch from an engaged ally to move to be in backup position, then invoke Replacement, and if Replacement happened first this wouldn't work (except with Triarii).  However, if others decide that making Replacement happen before all movement is the way to go then I'm OK with that.

[ajax98]

I like 1 & 3.
The sum of 2 is prevent slingshotting, which I am agreeable to. The actual mechanism needs to ensure that the Triarii has a certain range at the start of a turn and it doesn't exceed that measure.

[ZiNOS]

I like #2 and #3.

Unfortunately i have not played a lot with the Romans with my new life and Alexander going on.....

[Hamilcar]

No, see, this is all wrong.

Triarii CANNOT replace cav so they cannot shoot ahead of the line.  No Roman cav units have Reinforcement boxes!
Rules proof:
Replacement:  ...provided that both units have Reinforcement boxes.
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You cannot move Triarii forward by Replacement, regardless, unless the forward unit was engaged.
Rules proof:
Replacement:  ...The first unit becomes engaged with whatever unit(s) the other unit was engaged with...

Number 2 above is impossible!
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A Triarii may not Replace a unit if the Triarii was on Hold orders.  It must be on C or F orders.
Rules proof:
2.1.2 Back-Up Units
A back-up unit represents deeper ranks in your army. When a unit serves as a back-up unit, it stands ready to replace a friendly unit should that unit rout or be destroyed.
If an unengaged unit is on Close or Follow and any part of its front is touching any part of the rear of a friendly unit, it is considered a back-up unit for that friendly unit.
 
The Replacement ability requires a qualified backup unit, regardless of type:
Rules proof:
Replacement:  ...to have an unengaged backup unit trade places with a unit it is backing up...

______________________________________
As for Triarii "backing up" advanced Cav and then shooting forward when the Cav fail a route, the Triarii still need to be on C or F orders and will close on the Cav normally, regardless.  The Cav also need to actually fail the check! 
This special for the Triarii is a special and no more broken then any other special ability.


Optional fixes, if one is truly required:
As for the range of their coverage, maybe a 3.5" range would help this.

As for covering 3 t-rex, since the historical was designed as historical, and T-rex is not a true "Ancients" warbeast, I don't believe the Triarri were designed to cover such animals.  Limiting the Triarii coverage to units of the same size (eg, normal) could fix this issue well enough.. so could limiting them to support only normal sized, non-cavalry, non-wheeled units.

As for supporting missile, this has been covered and only follows logic that their spears cannot support arrows (or other projectiles) over distance but was meant for melee (engagements).

Number 3 is the only nasty trick in the book (taking away the Charge from opponent unit).
But I think this is the point of spending a command point.  It's the Roman nasty trick.  Leave them with something, considering you need active Reinforcement boxes to use the ability which means it's an equalizer for the Roman infantry vs. enemy beast and cav.

[Kevin]

Regarding #2, The rules are very ambiguous.  It says you become engaged with whatever foe the unit was engaged with.  OK, my foe was engaged with nobody, so I'm engaged with nobody.

If Replacement can only happen when a unit was engaged, it needs to say so explicitly.  I'll add that I've posted multiple reports before in which Triarii swapped positions with unengaged units, including the second report ever publicly posted involving Rome/Carthage, and nobody every had a problem with this action.

From November 2009:
http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,1148.0.html

From April, 2010:
http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,1374.0.html

[Chad_YMG]

I don't have the cards in front of me, but I absolutely agree that 'slingshotting' should be impossible.

Having the special Replacement ability only work on units with a Reinforcements box makes sense.  I would also be happy with saying you can only Replace at the end of M&C and can only Replace a unit that has not moved.

[Kevin]

I would also be happy with saying you can only Replace at the end of M&C and can only Replace a unit that has not moved.

I'd requested that the replacement not work on a unit which had final rushed, but that it would be OK if the unit had moved.

Suppose a Roman line is plodding forward at 3.5", Principes in front, Triarii behind.  Something really nasty is heading for the line (an elephant perhaps), and whoever is hit first will feel the pain.  The right thing to do at the moment would be to declare "replacement" to swap some Triarii with whichever Principes was in front, then after the Triarii took their lumps to do "Replacement" again to get the Principes into combat while the (wounded) Triarii moves to backup position again.


IMHO the above tactic is perfectly fine.  Making it only work on a unit which had not moved would make this impossible unless the Romans were on Hold, making Replacement less useful. 

Not that I'd throw a hissy fit if things were changed as stated above by Chad, just want everyone to be aware that that would be a bigger, more limiting, change than anything anyone had proposed up to this point.

[RushAss]

I'm totally with you on this Kev

[Hamilcar]

@Kevin,
I strongly disagree with this use of Replacement.
the card says:
Replacement:  ...The first unit becomes engaged with whatever unit(s) the other unit was engaged with...

This naturally implies it is engaged.  Clearly.  Only a rules lawyer bending a rule for his own gain could think otherwise.
The concept was to allow the Romans to act like Romans and backup their brothers-in-arms with support units.  NOT to flip flop units forward and back willy-nilly.
Ridiculous.
Had I read your reports I'd have called you to the carpet on this previously.  It's an abuse of the function and ability and Niko and/or Chad should put this straight asap.

[Torrg]

@Kevin,
I strongly disagree with this use of Replacement.
the card says:
Replacement:  ...The first unit becomes engaged with whatever unit(s) the other unit was engaged with...

This naturally implies it is engaged.  Clearly.  Only a rules lawyer bending a rule for his own gain could think otherwise.
The concept was to allow the Romans to act like Romans and backup their brothers-in-arms with support units.  NOT to flip flop units forward and back willy-nilly.
Ridiculous.
Had I read your reports I'd have called you to the carpet on this previously.  It's an abuse of the function and ability and Niko and/or Chad should put this straight asap.

I also read the card as Hamilcar states. Further the Triarii do not get to combine both the standard rules as written "Back-Up Units" rule (3.0 Rules page 43) plus their special "Back Up Unit Rule", it is a special to the Triarii only "Back Up Unit Rule" that's intent is to allow all units with-in 5" gain +1 attack not allow a "Slingshot" 5" away. I think they should have reworded the title of the special rule so as not to be confused.

Having the special Replacement ability only work on units with a Reinforcements box makes sense.

It already does state that, here is the complete text

You may spend one Command Action to have an unengaged backup unit trade places with a unit it is backing up, provided that both units have Reinforcement boxes. The first unit becomes engaged with whatever unit(s) the other unit was engageed with and is considered charging; the enemy unit(s) are not considered charging.

So as this reads, it can only be used on Roman units (reinforcement boxes), and the back up unit MUST be on Close or Follow Orders per the rules.

Further I do not see how the Triarii get to combine both the standard rules as written "Back-Up Units" rule (3.0 Rules page 43) plus their special "Back Up Unit Rule", Their's is a special to the Triarii only "Back Up Unit Rule" that's intent is to allow all units with-in 5" (of the front center point) gain +1 attack AND not allow a "Slingshot" 5" away. I think they should have reworded the title of the special rule so as not to be confused.

[Chad_YMG]

Having the special Replacement ability only work on units with a Reinforcements box makes sense.

It already does state that, here is the complete text

Phew!  I was pretty sure we'd designed the ability so that it would only work with Roman heavy infantry -- no skirmishers/cavalry and no Monsters & Mercs.  With this in mind, is there still a problem?

[Kevin]

Yes there is still a problem.  3 problems, to be exact.

Triarii can still use Replacement to "slingshot" 3.5" ahead of the main line.  First the Roman Infantry Moves, then they trade places, then the Triarii moves.

Triarii can still use the Backup Rule to take the place of a skirmisher or Italian Cavalry which just dashed ahead (say, up a key hill in the middle of the map) and got slaughtered (or failed a rout check), arriving at the key location long before they could have had they started in the front row and marched 3.5" per turn.

As currently written, a Roman Infantry can final rush an enemy unit (say, Knights), then "replacement" is declared and the Triarii takes it place and now the Knights are engaged with the Triarii but aren't considered charging.

[Hamilcar]

Yes there is still a problem.  3 problems, to be exact.

Triarii can still use Replacement to "slingshot" 3.5" ahead of the main line.  First the Roman Infantry Moves, then they trade places, then the Triarii moves.

No they can't.  Replacement is with ENGAGED units.
Replacement:  ...The first unit becomes engaged with whatever unit(s) the other unit was engaged with...

Triarii can still use the Backup Rule to take the place of a skirmisher or Italian Cavalry which just dashed ahead (say, up a key hill in the middle of the map) and got slaughtered (or failed a rout check), arriving at the key location long before they could have had they started in the front row and marched 3.5" per turn.

This is a special function of the unit.  So be it.  I don't think this is any more powerful then "Nets" or Centaurs.  Something has to die or fail a check for this to work.  Why is this such an issue for the Romans to have a good supporting line unit?

As currently written, a Roman Infantry can final rush an enemy unit (say, Knights), then "replacement" is declared and the Triarii takes it place and now the Knights are engaged with the Triarii but aren't considered charging.

Sure.  Great trick for the Romans.  It costs them a Command point to take away the Cav charge.  It's their army special ability.  So be it.  Some of the other army's abilities are worse!

[Hamilcar]

And, oh yeah!
All of this blather over a unit with a (3) 5/5 stat line and a 193 point cost!
You must be kidding.
All they are is pointy speed bumps.

[Kevin]

Hamilcar, I just won an 11-person tournament with the Romans, each army featuring 3-4 of these "speed bumps."   I'm trying to get this fixed so that the next tournament gets one on player skill at the game, not skill at figuring out rule loopholes.

Feel free to read the report.  You might even learn something.

P.S.  You repeating the exact same thing 4 times does not make it true.  Note the conspicuous silence of any of the Powers that Be, all of whom have posted on this thread.