The BEST - Heavy Infantry units for the points

[Niko White]

Also, more general Heavy Infantry theory:

To me, HI are like the next level of tank units.  You get a tank unit because you want to hold the line; the idea is that only vastly superior units will break through one-on-one, but the tank will probably never get anything useful done.  This makes Battlesquads and Abominations fantastic tanks, because the vast majority of their points cost is thrown into survivability, with very little invested in offensive abilities.

HI is, in my mind, the next step up.  You want it to hold up on a line and protect flanks, but you also want it to win the fight, rather than just not lose, probably not as quickly as a damage unit, but quickly enough to be relevant to the course of the game.  Basically, a unit to create breakthroughs on the front line without the risk of putting cavalry or another fragile but hard hitting unit in the center.

Celestial Guard might not be the best choice (in fact, they are one of the HE units I take least frequently) but they're the archetypal HI in my mind: there's basically no unit in the game that, one-on-one in a head to head fight, will kill CG before the CG kill them, and few that will last very long.  If you want to pick a point on your line and say "I am going to win here" then the CG is the surest way to do that.

The issue with them, and with HI in general, is that obviously combining both survivability and hitting power is brutally expensive, and the line is the area where you can often least afford to splurge while still getting good coverage and decent flanking troops.  So the 500 point price tag on the Guard hurts a lot, because they still die in a pinch from anyone halfway decent.

For my money, then, the high 300 point units have it.  Defense skill is so much better than toughness, in so many ways, that I can't ultimately give the nod to Longbeards; they're just ultimately too fragile, in my mind, for their points; either a determined cavalry charge, or a large monster, has a decent chance of seeing them off in relatively short order, and they're very vulnerable to missile fire.  My three picks would be:

-Chosen: HI type units tend to demand command action investment anyway, and the ability to add Faith Armor to the Chosen's 3/2 defense line and 5 green health pretty much creates a defensive monster; in many matchups they'll be better at defense than the CG because the opponent still rates somewhere less than 1 damage, but they have the shields to prevent command card or luck based attrition, and one more green health.  They lag a little bit in the damage department, but (5) 6/6 is quite good and will cut down light to medium blockers in relatively short order; the Umenzi also have no shortage of flanking ability.  You can't just line them up against whatever like you can with the CG, but they're still really, really good.

-Extrordinarii/Hannibal's Elite: These guys are pretty similar so I am cheating a bit and treating them as one unit.  The Roman equivalent is a bit better because it has Chosen-style attrition mitigation in the form of the troop rotation ability, but ultimately in both cases the key to the story is a cavalry-style devastating charge turn from pila + melee.  I like them a lot, but the risk is that at (5) 6/5 once engaged, they get stymied by an x/3 that doesn't rout, and end up bogged down acting as an expensive tank unit.

-Orc Marauders: Both hands is for killin'.

-Ok, ok, fine, Marauders are amazing because they have close to as many charge dice as the above but benefit so much from command card focus in later turns.  (I think breaking it up into two attacks is roughly a wash, though Pila can be great in odd situations where you can abuse them.)  5 str is still an issue, and they're more fragile than anything else on the list at 2/3 over 3/2, but they can just slaughter through fools, especially 3/x guys, who the opponent can usually count on to be very solid.  For my money, these guys are probably the HI I'm most likely to want on my team, though admittedly the Lash also counts for a lot, making sure that if they do win their fight, they're way more likely to be able to exploit it.

Also, side Centaur note: I love them and all, but they're not even in the HI category, not because they've got the Cavalry keyword, but because they just don't have enough health/def to stand on the front line with any confidence that they'll not lose should the battle go on very long.  Inevitability is the soul of Heavy Infantry, and the only inevitability with Centaurs is javelin hits; if the fight goes long, it probably goes badly for them.

[ajax98]

Besides my total lack of reading this was for "Heavy infantry units" when I posted "Centaurs"... Why are CC's not allowed on bears and wolfpacks? They are allowed on the Brownies, Centaurs and Treants.

IMO, an anthropomorphic level of human intelligence differentiates B-C-T from B&W. B&W do not respond positively to "tactical orders" or courage boosters in the play of cards.

Most 'trained' animals respond to visual commands, as is in their predatory nature. Some simple audible commands for movement, well rehearsed, will get such 'units' moving in the general direction desired. After that, a 'natural ferocity' generally takes over at the behest of the player/leader.

[Quelmotz]

To add on to Niko's point about Chosen, they get (6) 6/6 on every odd turn since you're probably going to bless them unless you really need to heal some units.

And if you need some help, things like Devotion of Transference and Devotion of Corruption are quite good with them.

[RushAss]

Celestial Guard vs. Longbeards

There's no doubt that the Guard is superior to Longbeards.  I'm just not sure if they are 110 points better.

Maneuver - The CG clearly has it all over the Longbeards, no doubt.  However, heavy units like that are usually deployed somewhere in the meat of the line and superior maneuvering probably won't become a factor until later in the game after the lines have thinned out.

Defense/longevity - Again, the CG is superior.  4/2 is arguably the best defensive stat in the game while 1/4 is merely very good.  The Longbeards are also more susceptible to ranged fire, but I think you need artillery to really be effective because normal archery is only damaging on 1s against the Beards.  The Longbeard Stat bar has an extra yellow and red hit box.  Normally that's not much of a factor with normal units, but with a base courage of 14 it is realistic to believe that the Longbeards will be around a long time before they rout.  Also factor in the fact that 1 out of every 3 Dwarven command cards can help with courage, so you have loads of help there.  The HE command deck only has 2 cards that help with courage in Oathbound.  So Longbeards can potentially stick around until you kill them outright. 

Offense - I am actually going to say that the Longbeards edge out the Celestial Guard here.  Yes, I said it.  Granted, you need to spend a command action to achieve this by activating the Rune.  Here's my reasoning:

1 - I feel that (6) 6/6 is every bit as good as (5) 7/6 in almost any situation.  When facing guys with 3 or 4 defensive skill the Guard has the edge.  Against mid-level defensive stats like 2/2, 1/3, or even 2/3, I think both units will fare the same.  Against poor defensive stats I actually believe the Longbeards have the edge through sheer dice and potential to do more damage in a turn by virtue of those dice. 

2 - Under the 3.0 rules Fearsome/Terrifying dudes will at least cost the CG an attack die.  So the best they can hope for on the charge will be (4) 7/7.  If you have crappy luck and fail the fear check, your 500 point super unit becomes a pedestrian (4) 6/6 on the charge (which I consider to be the most critical attack roll you will make).  The Longbeards could care less if their opponent is big and Scary and will give you a (6) 6/7 on the charge EVERY TIME.  There shall be pain.  Granted, both of these units will not be taking on Large opponents that often as many factions don't even have any fearsome stuff and even the factions that do don't have to bring them to the table.

3 - As the units take damage, the odds shift in the favor of the Longbeards.  Rune activated Longbeards swing at (5) 6/6 in the yellow and (4) 6/6 in the red.  Compare that to the Guard's (4) 7/6 in the yellow and (3) 7/6 in the red.  While they are very likely to inflict damage when damaged, the Guard won't be doing much of it.

If you matched both of these units up, the Celestial Guards would win every time with all attack dice being equal and equal command card play.  Of course the CG will be in the red by the end of that fight.  Yeah, I know that matching units up head to head is not the only (or even best) way to measure their worth.  I'm just thinking that at 110 points less than the CG, the Longbeards are the better deal.

[Niko White]

I think we differ pretty significantly on how good 1/4 is as a stat line; I find Longbeards uncomfortably fragile in a lot of situations because having only one halfway decent attack stat means a lot more can threaten them (with a much wider variety of command cards.)  Doubly so when the good stat is toughness, where there are a lot of dudes that have 7-8 strength to begin with.  You're right the Longbeards will have an additional charge die against big scary guys like Hill Giants or whatever, but they have the uncomfortable issue of being quite likely to lose the fight despite their better damage output just because the giant is on 4's and 4's against them.  Or if not lose, take a lot of random damage that ends up meaning they're less effective later on.

For the offense: math basically disagrees with you   Longbeards rate better damage against 0/x's in all cases, and against 1/x's while both the 'beards and the CG are in the yellow or red.  The first case is functionally irrelevant because they'll both kill any 0/x in the game incredibly quickly; I suppose if your opponent really really loves Rat Swarms the Longbeards will be good to you, but in cases like that heavy infantry is a supreme waste because 0/x's are never a threat so you should just be squashing them with cavalry.

The 1/x case is more relevant as a bunch of opposing line breakthrough units have 1/x stats, like Orc Axemen, Greatswords, and the odd giant monster, but I'm still pretty likely to call this one for the CG just because those units tend to be in the (5) 6/6 range and so the Guard will end up in the yellow/red much less quickly than the Longbeards.  Longbeards definitely have the slight edge against Abominations, though.  Then again, they also hate being shot by Giant Catapaults, so bringing them against the Undead is still a gamble, whereas CG are basically immune.  Still not sure either is going to show up against the Undead.

Now, the CG still might not be enough better to make the points worth spending; as I said, Heavy Infantry is already a luxury thing, so buying super expensive heavy infantry is a bitter pill to swallow.  But I think you can at least argue they are.  High Elves also have battlesquads, which means they're more likely to be able to afford to bring a headlining infantry unit without making the rest of the line + flanking forces completely embarrassing.  Cheap Dwarven men are all light to medium armored, making them substantially worse blockers; I think Dwarves are actually more likely than HE to attempt breakthroughs by ranged or flank attacks just because their basic tank units are so pricey.

[Quelmotz]

While on the topic of HE vs Dwarves, most Heavy Infantry units only see action when you have quite good and cheap tanks in the army to be honest.

A simple but brutally effective HE 2000 point army

5x Battlesquads
3x Elder-blade swordsmen

The EB Swordsmen can cut through just about anything, and most opponents don't have 3 units that can keep them busy long enough, let alone defeat them.

Whereas Dwarves will definitely require some Militia or some such units somewhere in the line if you're going to have a 8-unit line with Longbeards. And they'll be quite easy to punch through if your opponent has some decent damage units or something, since they can't really hit hard with (5) 4/5 unlike the Axemen, so you can always use cavalry or units with poor defense. 2/x is usually good enough to make them miss a lot.

Guess that's the reason why Chosen see so much action despite being quite an expensive HI unit - the rest of the army consists basically of cheap tanks (what with healing, Faith Armor, etc). Sure, you can still punch through them if you just outclass all of them sufficiently since the opponent can't FA/heal all of them while keeping the Chosen busy with a good tank.

[Niko White]

Why are you looking at 8 infantry and not 7 

I'm pretty sure that HE army gets much better with -EBS +Bowriders or something so you can contest a flank.  But substantively you're right; the Dwarves have real trouble bringing a heavy because if they do they have a lot of trouble filling out the line without leaving a gap.  That's ok if you can be sure to throw your Militia/Shortbeards up against something that won't embarrass them, but if you can't...yeah.

On the Chosen, you're right about part of that but the Umenzi are also basically a perfect storm of making those guys amazing.  Faith Armor owns on them, the spells back them up beautifully, new to moderately new players never see them coming because they expect Umenzi units to suck, and the Umenzi have a lot of trouble quickly busting through on the flanks because all their guys move 3.5" so you need to have that heavy infantry threat in the army to keep opponents from just dumping everything into their flank forces.  (Admittedly the 3.5" move is less relevant if you aren't facing serious ranged fire since you can just cap the main line to give the flankers time to swing out.)

[RushAss]

  You're right the Longbeards will have an additional charge die against big scary guys like Hill Giants or whatever, but they have the uncomfortable issue of being quite likely to lose the fight despite their better damage output just because the giant is on 4's and 4's against them.  Or if not lose, take a lot of random damage that ends up meaning they're less effective later on.

That's fine if they lose the fight against something like that as long as they deliver deep damage or perhaps hold the big guy up enough for a lesser unit to achieve a pinch.  If my Longbeards die while putting a Hill Giant or Treant into the red, I still got value out of them because the bigger units cost my opponent more anyways and I may be winning the fight elsewhere

Then again, they also hate being shot by Giant Catapaults, so bringing them against the Undead is still a gamble, whereas CG are basically immune.  Still not sure either is going to show up against the Undead.

Yeah, artillery is a tough one for the Longbeards.  But half of the factions out there don't have artillery.  If my opponent wants to spend 500 points on a Giant Catapult and dedicate it to the Longbeards, that's also OK as long as the Beards don't break before they can engage.  It will mean a point of damage per turn on the Undead player's side from his 500 point super unit.  I know the Beards may not survive that fight, but they still may have a chance to take someone with them and the GC will be occupied shooting at them and not my squishier guys.

Now, the CG still might not be enough better to make the points worth spending; as I said, Heavy Infantry is already a luxury thing, so buying super expensive heavy infantry is a bitter pill to swallow.  But I think you can at least argue they are. 

Well, yeah!  That's what we're arguing!  It's no question that the CG is better in almost all phases, I'm just wondering if they are 110 points better.  It's a good argument from both sides, I think.  Many of your comments lead to a far broader subject concerning army composition and how HI units fit into it.  That's a whole other thread in itself and I think somebody should start that one up soon

Concerning Chosen
Nikko Speaks truth about Faith Armor.  1 command action to add an additional hit box to a 3/2 defense is a no-brainer.  Nikko is also spot on about the spells backing them up.  They should almost always be blessed before they get their initial charge.  Healing them is also very effective and putting faith armor on your spell casters helps that out in the long run as well.  My 1 regret with Chosen is that you almost never get an opportunity to play command cards on them because Faith Armor is so addictive.  I've played games with the Umenzi where I literally drew only 5 or 6 cards the entire game! 

[Chad_YMG]

I wonder, does the Ravenwood Bear Pack count as infantry?  The inability to play command cards on them hurts, but they are just a brutal, brutal unit.

Besides my total lack of reading this was for "Heavy infantry units" when I posted "Centaurs"... Why are CC's not allowed on bears and wolfpacks? They are allowed on the Brownies, Centaurs and Treants.

It's more of a flavor thing.  The Brownies, Centaurs and Treants are still "people" and can be inspired and/or affected by Elvish magic.  The animals are bound to the elves but can't interact at quite the same level.

[RushAss]

Yeah, the Bears are a unique unit in the aspect that you have the option to control them by fielding Bearkin or just letting them run rampant.  Regardless of how you use them, I think they are just a neat unit both from a flavor standpoint as well as their usefulness on the battle field.

More thoughts on Tyrants. 
While costly for their initial stats, they are the kind of unit that actually gets better as the fight goes on.  If you have Spearmen and they can get their opponent into the yellow before they get there, you'll be tossing 7 dice.  In addition, when you do make a courage check from going into the yellow you'll be making it at a 12 (13 if you have fury).  The fact that they are core is just gravy.  Sweet deal.

And I'll go on record as saying I was not a big fan of the cost of Tyrants before I started playing Lizardmen.  That has changed.  I'd rather have a Tyrant in my line than Ancients in just about any situation.  Seriously.

[gull2112]

I'll just mention Trolls because of the self healing that makes them unique from other Heavies. It's really annoying to your opponent if you've got a Healer Mage too!

[RushAss]

I don't categorize Trolls as infantry but as something I call "big scary monster" which is another thread in itself which I was going to put up sometime soon unless somebody beats me to it.

Mike?

[gull2112]

Mike?

Got the hint, don't got the time. SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed) just called and reminded me how much I'd like to go to Noodles and Co. and get some take-out for dinner.

Trolls are kinda like heavy infantry, large and bipedal.

[Quelmotz]

@Niko: Granted the HE do get better with Bowriders or some such, but purely on the topic of Heavy Infantry, that army is quite a good one if you're only restricted to core/infantry units for some reason.

I thought a line could fit 8 units? Unless I'm remembering the rules wrongly or you were talking about the issue above.

[Niko White]

@Niko: Granted the HE do get better with Bowriders or some such, but purely on the topic of Heavy Infantry, that army is quite a good one if you're only restricted to core/infantry units for some reason.

I thought a line could fit 8 units? Unless I'm remembering the rules wrongly or you were talking about the issue above.

The deployment zone fits a seven long line.  Eight or nine can come in handy if you need some flank action, but 7 cover the whole front line of the deployment zone.