High Elf observations

[gull2112]

I haven't played a lot with HE, I've mostly played agin' em. Here are my observations after a game today. I don't intend for these to be authoritative, in fact I'm mostly trying to get further observations to fill out my feel for them. Specifically...

Scorpions: I feel these are almost certainly overpriced for the reason that the situations that they are usefull in is so narrow as to limit their effectiveness. I think what really narrows down their usefullness is the "no fire into melee" limitation. I'm not saying this is unreasonable, I am saying it is very limiting because after the initial turns of the game the opportunity to use them is really narrow.

Chariots: In any game i've ever seen them used they don't last long once engaged. This is very limiting when they are part of a faction that fields very few units overall anyway. I think you could have a very effective charging combo if you had them followed by another unit that moves 5" like the rangers. It is a very effective combo, maybe its even worth 300 points, but not the 500+ it actually costs. Not in an army that needs more, not fewer, units.

If I understand Celtic chariot's use, it was to charge in, take some swipes, and charge away. Ancient armies used them as a form of primitive cruise missile (the heavy scythed variety anyway) that the crew abandoned as it contacted the enemy formation, with foot troops close behind to hit the line while it was broken up by the chariots. With out a whole lot of special rules I'm not interested in seeing any of these options try to be made to "fit" a BG army. Ultimately, I'm just not sure when or how to employ the chariots.

[Kevin]

Scorpions, like the Dwarven Ballista, are about to become a whole lot more useful once the 3.0 rules come out, as you'll be allowed to shoot at Large opponents even when they're engaged.  (Technically when they're engaged vs. non-large opponents, but since no Dwarf of High Elf unit is large this qualifier isn't relevant.)

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Chariots are functionally equivalent to light cavalry, and operate in the same way as cavalry in general:  aim 'em at some weak unit and hope to shatter it in a single turn, then start pinching!  Oh, and try to avoid spears.

What makes chariots a bit less effective in this role than most light cavalry is that (a) they're relatively slow and (b) since the High Elves usually have fewer units it can be challenging to line them up vs. the enemy unit you want to be fighting.  On the other hand, the fact that they get to do impact hits even when hit on the side means that you can, if you have to, send one chariots after two weak opponents coming in side-by-side.  If you can one-shot the one, you can outfight the other as it hits your flank. 

[gull2112]

I agree with your observations Kevin. I did a little test scenario that pitted these forces:

                                        ORCS
            Spears  Xbows   spears    Xbows  Spears  Xbows Spears

                      Chariots Chariots Chariots Chariots
                      Rangers  Rangers Rangers Rangers
                                    High Elves

I wanted to see what would happen. The HE force had 202 points more, but they were charging a line pregnant with spears. The X bows concentrated their fire on one chariot for the two turns before they closed and did a whopping two damage. The turn that the chariots closed they did massive damage (they all had precision so they did three auto hits with seven strength vs. 3 toughness). Of course, nothing got one shotted.  The chariots lasted three turns and then the rangers took over to clean up the mess. It was surpisingly touch and go and finally the last ranger went down fighting the last two spear units both of whom were in the yellow. My observation from this experiment is that chariots don't last beyond the initial charge vs. similarily costed units. Of note is that the two spear units that suffered the initial charge did not last to the end game. Similar points and near tie ending with the win attributed mostly to dice (my insane orky courage checks that make the orcs damn near invincible.

Based on my vast experience garnered during this one game I think that the biggest problem with the chariots is their lack of damage boxes. IMHO they should have more for the cost or cost less, due to their brittleness. Please note I'm not saying that YMG should change anything, what I am saying is that for me to take chariots they would have to be cheaper. I can't even imagine the situation where they would be a good buy.

[ajax98]

Yeah, the current cost/benefit of Chariots is difficult to justify putting it in a roster.

With any unit in BGxW a simple ratio of cost of a damage box shows some interesting trends.

[gull2112]

Based on Kevin's comments about Chariots basically being light cav I developed some new appreciation for them. My imagination was hampered by my historical knowledge that scythed chariots were fire-and-forget weapons used to break up enemy formations. Used as light cav they may have a place.

So I have constructed this scenario in my head:

        Wargs swords swords swords   Wargs
      Chariots  HEBS   HEBS   HEBS   Chariots

Basically, I start with the HE turn and initial charge. How long will it take for the Chariots to blow away the wolf riders and turn to pinch the Orc swordsmen? Will the battle squads be able to hold long enough to be "rescued" by the pinching chariots? The two forces are within 17 points of each other, so it should be a close fight. With out actually fighting the battle I can tell it would be too close to bet heavily on.

So, if you think of chariots as light cav (pricey light cav), they would do alright, if you had open terrain and if you expected light cav type units running agin' you. This is far more accord than I have ever previously given them.

[ajax98]

I'd put my bet on the HE.
By my calculations the Chariots have 2x better chance of one shotting the Wargs, 55%+/- to 28%+/-.

In the worst case the HE courage is there to save you, barring the problem of bad dice.

[gull2112]

I'd put my bet on the HE.

Hard to argue with the math. Obviously, in my scenario I have tried to limit as many variables as possible, which makes it not unlike economic theories that start out with the never extant "with all other things being equal..." But it does point out a situation where chariots could be usefull, which was my intention.

[gull2112]

And the $50,000 question is... How effective are they vs. Carthaginian skirmishers? Carthage in general? I'm thinking that even if you charge them to their ultimate death vs. some carthage heavies, if you include the impact hits and the right card to convert hits to wounds, you might have a viable unit. Sure its gonna die, but what is it worth to put a heavy (or the heavy) into the yellow?

[Torrg]

Try this Carthage Army

4 Balearic Slingers
2 Moorish Archers
7 Caetrati
4 Numidian Cavalry
1 Elephant
Total 1994 points.

I know two armies it creamed (both I played)...
It smashed an undead army of 2 giants, 2 abominations, 4 zombies and 2 skele bowmen.
And Umenzi had 4 shamans, 3 Atlatlmen, 3 Spearmen, 4 Javelineers

If you can get the first movement phase (ie go first) you can engage at the center of the board and slowly back up if they come at you. Missle fire is so ineffective against this force and the ability to take a wound and run away leaves flanks wide open for counter attacks....